Family court - what’s the point?

[NooNooMummy]

How would this go down? Next family court hearing/ CAFCASS meeting, I just say nothing. He lies, they listen. I point them to his DV, abuse,violence, lies and it’s ignored (Are they not allowed to consider the copies of emails/ text messages and the involvement of various agencies?) I give up.

Your solicitor should have barristers chambers they have a relationship with. Direct access doesn’t get you the best I would say. Of course it makes a difference. They have training, experience and advocacy skills. You probably don’t.

It difficult to know if £65,000 was good value or not. It would depend on the complexity of the case no doubt. Most people would want a hospital consultant to put them right medically but think DIY can replace a barrister who has training and expertise in their field.

@NynaeveSedai

If your Daughter was a victim of DV, she would have qualified for Legal Aid. Her Counsel would have been funded by Legal Aid.

Only if she met very specific conditions. Plenty of victims of DA don't qualify for legal aid.

Yep. I experienced coercive control, mental and sexual abuse. I didn't get funding. It's a lottery.

Horrible comment about you don't care enough about your kids if you can't stump up thousands. My ex dragged it out for years and years. Already exhausted all family help over first two years.

Family court is brutal and it's a spin the bottle as to what judge you get and what understanding and support there is from place to place.

TizerorFizz Are you a solicitor? How can you say that’s good value? £65K and no marriage or money involved! Who has £65K for solicitors!

I don’t have a solicitor so need direct access.

I think it’s the cross examination skills and maybe the influence with the judge that will help. I mean the evidence should stand for itself. I have had solicitors themselves advise me to do things like applications and statements myself.

@wombleflump

I said it was difficult to know if £65,000 is good value or not. Some people would be ok with that for a very complex case. Costs can get very high if no one agrees and the case goes to and fro for years. No I’m not a solicitor.

However you cannot assume everyone is poor. They are not.

@Garriet not in our case. We had a different junior solicitor turn up at every hearing. They literally sent whoever was free. Two had not read anything, I mean that literally, and it was an utter shambles. My DD was thrown under the bus. No attempt to argue her case. And she did not get a barrister. And no, I was not "poorly advised". I'm an educated, intelligent woman. I looked into all DD's options and spoke to Legal Aid myself so I'm stating facts. They're not up for conjecture @ConfusedNoMore we had the same experience. I really sympathise. It's terrifying.

@Weatherwax13 as I said, the solicitor could have instructed a barrister to attend the hearing, and legal aid would have funded that, but it seems they chose not to and to attend the hearing themselves, which appears to have been a poor decision if they’re sending different people who aren’t properly briefed. When I say your daughter may have been poorly advised, I meant by her solicitor - nothing to do with the support you gave her. It’s a shame that you had such a poor experience with this solicitor’s firm.

@liveforsummer my sympathies to you also. It does rub salt in the wound to go through the ignorance spouted here. Having the abusive ex tell a Court that you're lying and watchingthe horror unfold. And now people here disputing your factual account and saying you're lying about your shoddy legal support on top of it. It beggars belief. "This is what actually happened to me" met with "no it isn't, you're wrong"
And because @Garriet works with excellent legal aid solicitors that means it definitely can't be the case that they are not all like this. Again, this insistence that one person's experience is universal so the other person is automatically wrong. About their own lived experience! It's mind bending.

@Weatherwax13 at no point have I said they are all good - clearly this is not your experience and I have acknowledged this. However it is universally the case that legal aid will pay for barristers instructed by those solicitors, and as I’ve said in my last two posts it seems the problem for your daughter was that her solicitors chose not to do that and instead to attend the hearings themselves and also while unprepared, which indeed is poor and worthy of a complaint.

[quote Weatherwax13]@liveforsummer my sympathies to you also. It does rub salt in the wound to go through the ignorance spouted here. Having the abusive ex tell a Court that you're lying and watchingthe horror unfold. And now people here disputing your factual account and saying you're lying about your shoddy legal support on top of it. It beggars belief. "This is what actually happened to me" met with "no it isn't, you're wrong"
And because @Garriet works with excellent legal aid solicitors that means it definitely can't be the case that they are not all like this. Again, this insistence that one person's experience is universal so the other person is automatically wrong. About their own lived experience! It's mind bending.[/quote]
That's mumsnet for you. Very few people seem to contemplate anything outside of their own bubble

[quote Weatherwax13]@liveforsummer my sympathies to you also. It does rub salt in the wound to go through the ignorance spouted here. Having the abusive ex tell a Court that you're lying and watchingthe horror unfold. And now people here disputing your factual account and saying you're lying about your shoddy legal support on top of it. It beggars belief. "This is what actually happened to me" met with "no it isn't, you're wrong"
And because @Garriet works with excellent legal aid solicitors that means it definitely can't be the case that they are not all like this. Again, this insistence that one person's experience is universal so the other person is automatically wrong. About their own lived experience! It's mind bending.[/quote]
Sorry but you have absolutely no basis or business to write this
I sadly know all too well what your daughter went through as this has happened to me before
I am more than capable of empathising as I have been there and then some. So much so I’m back there again
I was merely correcting your factually correct comment that legal aid doesn’t extend to appointment of barristers

I have been lucky in that this time I have an excellent solicitor and barrister funded entirely by legal aid
I am all too well aware of what a lottery the entire family court process is.

You experience and account isn’t wrong but you’re incorrect in the assertion the legal aid and barristers comment

My heart goes out to anyone who has been through hell in the family courts. I know what a frightening and lonely place it can be. As well as an unjust one. I am praying this time round things are different for me and my children.

I don’t see why it’s a lottery. It’s like most things in life. High standards are maintained by most but some let the profession down. However there are ways of lessening the likelihood of issues arising.

It’s become acceptable to represent yourself and think professional solicitors and barristers are a waste of money. There is even a directory of barristers chambers with rankings so you can see who might be any good. A strong family team will be flagged up. A larger team will have “baby” barristers right up to QCs.

Solicitors should have professional relationships with decent Family Barristers. Barristers will network with solicitors. They wish to build up a client base with solicitors as barristers are self employed. Solicitors need to know who they can trust to do a good job prior to going to court. They all work with the client in order to represent the client professionally in court.

I think I’m right in saying no untrained solicitor can advocate in court. Others will know more but I believe it’s to ensure standards. Complex cases with numerous days in court should go to a barrister and any decent firm of solicitors would do this for a client.

In addition judges can reduce fees if they are excessive.

@TizerorFizz

I don’t see why it’s a lottery. It’s like most things in life. High standards are maintained by most but some let the profession down. However there are ways of lessening the likelihood of issues arising.

It’s become acceptable to represent yourself and think professional solicitors and barristers are a waste of money. There is even a directory of barristers chambers with rankings so you can see who might be any good. A strong family team will be flagged up. A larger team will have “baby” barristers right up to QCs.

Solicitors should have professional relationships with decent Family Barristers. Barristers will network with solicitors. They wish to build up a client base with solicitors as barristers are self employed. Solicitors need to know who they can trust to do a good job prior to going to court. They all work with the client in order to represent the client professionally in court.

I think I’m right in saying no untrained solicitor can advocate in court. Others will know more but I believe it’s to ensure standards. Complex cases with numerous days in court should go to a barrister and any decent firm of solicitors would do this for a client.

In addition judges can reduce fees if they are excessive.

There are many good reasons why people perceive the family courts as a lottery.

To suggest incredulity at this or question it in relation to an aspect of instructing counsel is naive

I do not agree with self representation but find the occurrence of it an indictment of the inequities of the system more then the wilful exercise of someone’s ego over their day in court or a poor instructing solicitor so to speak

From my perspective it’s easy to see how people feel it’s a lottery. Judges are not always consistent, and in particular magistrates who I personally feel shouldn’t be sitting in family cases where the future of a child is at stake. And I don’t get the sense that people feel lawyers aren’t needed and it’s just as good to self-represent - more that many people simply don’t have the money to pay for them, and it is a lot of money for a lot of people. The decimation of legal aid for private family court cases is a travesty and those who suffer most for it are children.

It’s just another form of abuse. Yes, my daughter matters more than anything in the world but I can’t afford to pay thousands for legal fees just to save me from having to address my abuser and to make a judge take me seriously. Domestic violence legal aid would only cover emergency non-molestation type representation and does not apply when the abuser just wants to mess up and you and your children’s lives on a whim.

…or maybe it’s the fact that I have equity in my home that prevents me from getting legal aid. Who knows. It shouldn’t be this difficult for women to protect themselves from this type of abuse.

…I’m just going to let an incompetent Cafcass person, an ill prepared magistrate and my lying ex-husband decide what fresh nonsense my daughter and I must endure. Clearly, there’s no point me even turning up, clear

@NooNooMummy

…I’m just going to let an incompetent Cafcass person, an ill prepared magistrate and my lying ex-husband decide what fresh nonsense my daughter and I must endure. Clearly, there’s no point me even turning up, clear

If you have a barrister you don't get a magistrate.

A magistrate is a lay person. I know magistrates in a different sphere and it is really down to how they are advised and their own life experience on how they rule.

It all seems pretty incompetent whoever deals with us.

And no one yet has an answer for those who can’t afford a barrister. Can I make my husband pay my legal fees - he started this?

@NooNooMummy

…or maybe it’s the fact that I have equity in my home that prevents me from getting legal aid. Who knows. It shouldn’t be this difficult for women to protect themselves from this type of abuse.

That’s exactly what the problem is. Sadly legal aid takes into account equity in a home, never mind that it’s the roof over your children’s heads and does not translate to available cash. It’s entirely wrong but it’s how the system is.

@NooNooMummy

And no one yet has an answer for those who can’t afford a barrister. Can I make my husband pay my legal fees - he started this?

I’m not a lawyer but you might want to ring the number on this leaflet to see what the options might be in children’s proceedings, unless anyone with more legal knowledge can add anything here.

rightsofwomen.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Legal-Services-Payment-Orders.pdf

Ah Thank you Garnet. I know the Rights of Women helpline very well (and it’s tricky to get through to them!). They’re brilliant tho’ Thanks for sharing

And no one yet has an answer for those who can’t afford a barrister. Can I make my husband pay my legal fees - he started this?

For child proceedings each side pays their own legal fees unless the other side is proven to be an a-hole.

This information isn't hard to find even if you don't have a barrister/solicitor/legal exec to ask - familylawpartners.co.uk/blog/court-proceedings-relating-children-pay-costs/

[quote RedWingBoots]And no one yet has an answer for those who can’t afford a barrister. Can I make my husband pay my legal fees - he started this?

For child proceedings each side pays their own legal fees unless the other side is proven to be an a-hole.

This information isn't hard to find even if you don't have a barrister/solicitor/legal exec to ask - familylawpartners.co.uk/blog/court-proceedings-relating-children-pay-costs/[/quote]
The court threatened and toward my costs against my ex because he was being wholly unreasonable and at that point he dropped it but already paid out nearly £5000 in costs and they were recoverable.