To support the no fly zone in Ukraine

[ThisIsGroundControl]

I get why we haven't but when the Ukrainian president begs for it I think about how I'd feel, if it was my country.
We are surely just delaying the inevitable, we are consoling ourselves that trucks full of supplies is enough when in reality we are showing weakness.

Yabvu. A ‘no fly zone’ means shooting down Russian military planes. That is impossible to do without all the Nato countries declaring war on Russia, a nuclear power. It would start world war 3.

I hate Putin. I want Ukraine to win this. But I would rather see Ukraine become part of Russia than live through world war 3.

I don't get this argument, really. We would all die, but it would be worth it to know we'd done the right thing in the final weeks before armageddon?

Do you call WW111 showing strength, op?

Zelensky doesn’t need to win the Russia / Ukraine war to be a hero. He is anyway and will be even more so if he steps back, walks away, surrenders and ultimately saves the whole world . Which will be heartbreaking and bittersweet for him as he couldn’t save his own people.

Putin is out of control. Whether he wins or not he’s a loser. He’s backed into a corner and that makes things unpredictable

@TheMerrickBoy

I don't get this argument, really. We would all die, but it would be worth it to know we'd done the right thing in the final weeks before armageddon?

The ultimate example of cutting your nose off to spite your face really isn’t it

@TwentyTOoo

Zelensky doesn’t need to win the Russia / Ukraine war to be a hero. He is anyway and will be even more so if he steps back, walks away, surrenders and ultimately saves the whole world . Which will be heartbreaking and bittersweet for him as he couldn’t save his own people.

Putin is out of control. Whether he wins or not he’s a loser. He’s backed into a corner and that makes things unpredictable

@TwentyTOoo you have nailed it again.

No. To be honest I think anyone in support of a no-fly zone is at best incredibly naïve and at worst incredibly stupid. As horrific as what is happening to Ukraine is, any NATO member simply cannot intervene in an ‘aggressive’ way. Mad Vlad is probably bluffing re using nukes but we just can’t take that chance.

I didn't understand this either but every war expert I have seen says the same - we can't. Putin is holding the world to ransom. Bastard

Better to find anti putin rebels within Russia and support them

pucelleauxblanchesmains

Regardless of who owns Al Jazeera, the story is heartbreaking. Racism, regardless of who is the victim, is absolutely disgusting. It is a pathetic argument to try to justify racism anywhere by pretty much saying ‘Oh but they do it too’. Grow up.

@Ontheblink I'm not excusing racism, I'm pointing out that you're getting your info from a government that essentially owns slaves. And to be quite honest I think it's pretty grim to do the equivocating "well the Ukrainians aren't perfect" shtick while they have literally just been invaded by a hostile foreign power. Smacks of the claims from Russia that it's full of Nazis.

@FurryBandito

The world is dealing with a furious, paranoid psychopath who sees not having already dealt with Ukraine in a day or two and having most of the world condemning his actions there as utterly humiliating. There is no telling how far he might go . Maybe he won’t press the big red button but on the other hand he might. We are poised on a knife edge with someone who is deluded and apoplectic with rage. Go one step too far and the whole continent (and perhaps others) will be wiped off the face of the earth.

Yes. And by all accounts he himself is sick. So nothing at all to lose.

Putin is clearly trying to get NATO to declare war. Liz Truss' comments made him put his nuclear weapons on high alert, then sanctions are taken as us declaring war. A no fly zone would absolutely trigger him!

pucelleauxblanchesmains

Do you think you are getting your information from those who are perfect then? Are you really trying to say media outlets everywhere are perfect???
My post was highlighting the fact that even during such an invasion people are still being discriminated against, and in the most disgusting way.

For all we know those that were being treated so horribly were in fact Ukrainian but simply of different ethnicity.

An opinion piece on this in the Guardian: www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/05/no-fly-zones-ukraine-war-escalation

"well the Ukrainians aren't perfect" shtick while they have literally just been invaded by a hostile foreign power. Smacks of the claims from Russia that it's full of Nazis.

pucelleauxblanchesmains

Racism is never okay, not even during a f war.

I sincerely hope I never have the displeasure of meeting you or someone with your opinion in RL.

@Ontheblink

"well the Ukrainians aren't perfect" shtick while they have literally just been invaded by a hostile foreign power. Smacks of the claims from Russia that it's full of Nazis.

pucelleauxblanchesmains

Racism is never okay, not even during a f war.

I sincerely hope I never have the displeasure of meeting you or someone with your opinion in RL.

I agree that racism is never OK.

We do have to be aware, however, that there is a whole machine of Russian propaganda working to try to discredit the Ukrainians. They know the cultural buttons to push to make us not care. Those buttons are racism, sexism, homophobia and the like. We want a 'perfect' victim and heroes. Goodies and baddies. The fact is that Eastern Europe (and the rest of the world) is a racist, sexist, homophobic place. Would it be more like that with the Russians in charge, rather than a Jewish comedian? Probably.

Sometimes you're fighting hard for the least worst outcome.

The same happened with Alexei Navalny who, although an incredibly brave opposition leader, also says homophobic and racist things. He was downgraded by Amnesty, who don't consider him a prisoner of conscience any more. He's still languishing in prison but we aren't supposed to care because he's a deeply flawed person. He wasn't locked up by Putin because he's racist FFS, so he's still a prisoner of conscience even if he's a racist.

I doubt Mandela, Gandhi, Ortega or Aung San Suu Kyi could pass any purity tests either. If you wait for people to be perfect, you will wait forever.

Putin wants us to say, 'fuck them' and forget.

Sorry not read the full thread but I found this a good perspective

m.youtube.com/watch?v=8DXwlqoSF70

And the woman he discusses It with, not sure of her name

we have to be aware however that there is a whole machine of Russian propaganda working to try to discredit the Ukrainians

Yep on this forum too as well as many others. They are becoming blindingly obvious.

I think the rudeness towards the OP is really unfair.

It's reasonable to question how far Putin is allowed to go before the West stands up to him. He knows Russia would be destroyed if he dared fire a nuke. The people around him know it too, and won't be mad enough to want themselves, their families and their country wiped out.

Putin said any interference or support for Ukraine would trigger consequences never seen before, and that has proved to be an empty threat.

@ThisIsGroundControl

I understand what it means, but we are not the aggressor, we haven't chosen this.

Of course we aren't. But Putin is also fighting a propaganda war and any direct action by us will be jumped upon by him as an excuse to do something really dreadful.