To support the no fly zone in Ukraine

[ThisIsGroundControl]

I get why we haven't but when the Ukrainian president begs for it I think about how I'd feel, if it was my country.
We are surely just delaying the inevitable, we are consoling ourselves that trucks full of supplies is enough when in reality we are showing weakness.

It’s so hard to watch what is happening and know that we aren’t doing enough to prevent it, and on an emotional level I do see where you’re coming from OP. Realistically though, what the other posters are saying is right. We can’t turn this into WW3, or we’ll all be dead. I just can’t see anyway for this to end now without serious consequences for everyone. It’s heartbreaking.

The UK isn't dependent on Russian energy - less than 10 per cent of ours comes from there.

I know this but other, larger, more influential countries are. I was speaking generally not just about the U.K.

Where does it stop?

Probably an unpopular opinion and I wish I was wrong but Ukraine is not going to hold out against Russia. While I’m full of admiration for zelensky and the Ukrainian people this is ending with Russia taking over Ukraine. And while I fully agree that no country should have to roll over and accept being invaded aren’t they just putting off the inevitable and letting thousands of civilians be killed in the process as well as hundreds of thousands have their homes destroyed?

It could stop by Zelensky putting up the white flag. Which I know seems awful but maybe it’s time his head ruled his heart? The world could then carry on with serious sanctions against Russia and maybe have negotiated a Russian withdrawal at some point down the line. Putin needs to be offered a way out to save face. At the minute he’s a cornered rat and that’s dangerous. The situation needs de escalation not escalating. Short term loss might mean a better long term situation?

I hope I’m wrong. I hope the Russian people get fed up with sanctions and rise up and chop his head off.

The last thing we should be doing is enforcing a no fly zone.

@CovidCorvid I agrée

As one Ukrainian commentators put it last night, WW3 has already started, it's just that not everyone has realised that yet.

This is now about how we manage an expansionist aggressor without it turning nuclear. If a NATO country is invaded then a non-nuclear response is rather more possible.

It could stop by Zelensky putting up the white flag. Which I know seems awful but maybe it’s time his head ruled his heart? The world could then carry on with serious sanctions against Russia and maybe have negotiated a Russian withdrawal at some point down the line. Putin needs to be offered a way out to save face. At the minute he’s a cornered rat and that’s dangerous. The situation needs de escalation not escalating. Short term loss might mean a better long term situation?

This. Sadly.

As someone else has said we already in ww3 - we haven’t quite all realised this.

I wish we could do something, the feeling of sadness for the Ukraines, we as Putin each have blood on our hands as we stand by and do nothing. I know why we can’t do anything we can’t poke the bear. So right now we are already invaded - through control - Putin doing it to us getting in our heads like he does to Russians. We by his control are doing nothing because he ‘could’ (and probably would the twat) push the button. And the narcissist he is, is thriving on the fear and control of us.

I have no idea what the answer is, I hope that the Russian people stand up to him - but again the fear and control he has means he controls by fear …like he does to nearly the rest of the world.

The thing is, I like living (not in a nuclear wasteland). So, I suspect, does most of the world. I think we should be helping any way we can, short of actions which will lead to war between two atomic powers. But I think the no fly zone is too high risk for the whole world.

I do recommend (re)watching "The Grand Design" episode of Yes Prime Minister, which contains an excellent description of salami-slicing.

It's not quite the same in terms of the tactics, but the issues of when you stand up and say 'no' remain. At present, the line is an attack on a NATO member.

That includes the three Baltic states (one of which, Lithuania, surrounds the Russian enclave of Kaliningrad)

Other NATO members which abut Russia, its client Belarus and also Ukraine, are Poland Slovakia and Hungary.

@MrsTerryPratchett

No I'm sorry.

If WW3 has to begin, it has to begin by the aggressor choosing it.

I'd wheel every single piece of military equipment possible up to the border for the Ukrainians to take, but a no-fly zone means shooting down Russian planes.

This.

@LondonWolf

It could stop by Zelensky putting up the white flag. Which I know seems awful but maybe it’s time his head ruled his heart? The world could then carry on with serious sanctions against Russia and maybe have negotiated a Russian withdrawal at some point down the line. Putin needs to be offered a way out to save face. At the minute he’s a cornered rat and that’s dangerous. The situation needs de escalation not escalating. Short term loss might mean a better long term situation?

This. Sadly.

Yes I agree. He needs to do this, it’s the only way it won’t be ww3

It’s heartbreaking but it’s the only way

@Change123today

As someone else has said we already in ww3 - we haven’t quite all realised this.

I wish we could do something, the feeling of sadness for the Ukraines, we as Putin each have blood on our hands as we stand by and do nothing. I know why we can’t do anything we can’t poke the bear. So right now we are already invaded - through control - Putin doing it to us getting in our heads like he does to Russians. We by his control are doing nothing because he ‘could’ (and probably would the twat) push the button. And the narcissist he is, is thriving on the fear and control of us.

I have no idea what the answer is, I hope that the Russian people stand up to him - but again the fear and control he has means he controls by fear …like he does to nearly the rest of the world.

I agree with this.

To many pp, this is a discussion forum, the thread is in news and has a clear title.

Yes WW3 has probably already started, but we need to buy for time to adequately prepare - e.g. the US will be fighting a war with 2 fronts (Europe/Pacific) and that level of capability can't be mobilised in only days.

If we declare a no fly zone today, we're at direct war today and our forces simply aren't assembled yet.

I read this yesterday. I’m currently on the fence about whether we should be enforcing a no fly zone.

“Philip Breedlove, a retired U.S. Air Force general and former NATO supreme allied commander Europe, went in-depth with Foreign Policy on Sunday to describe what a no-fly zone over Ukraine would require:

I am actually a proponent of it. But let me now tell you why it will probably not happen, because the reality of a no-fly zone is, it is an act of war. There are a lot of people who don't understand no-fly zones. You don't just say, 'That's a no fly zone.' You have to enforce a no-fly zone, which means you have to be willing to use force against those who break the no-fly zone. The second thing, which nobody understands, is if you put a no-fly zone in the eastern part of Ukraine, for instance, and we're going to fly coalition or NATO aircraft into that no-fly zone, then we have to take out all the weapons that can fire into our no-fly zone and cause harm to our aircraft. So that means bombing enemy radars and missile systems on the other side of the border. And you know what that means, right? That is tantamount to war. So if we're going to declare a no-fly zone, we have to take down the enemy's capability to fire into and affect our no-fly zone. And few understand that.

The lack of understanding Breedlove lamented is certainly the case for the majority of the respondents to Reuters’ poll who opposed "conducting air strikes to support the Ukrainian army." While Breedlove still favors a no-fly zone despite his deep knowledge of those issues, he and other proponents seem to be discounting the likelihood that Moscow will see a no-fly zone as a first step toward regime change.”

We have to go with what the professionals think here. And hope that someone has the balls to kill Putin.

@LondonWolf

The UK isn't dependent on Russian energy - less than 10 per cent of ours comes from there.

I know this but other, larger, more influential countries are. I was speaking generally not just about the U.K.

You said 'we all'. I'm not being pedantic, it does matter because for example Germany and the UK are in entirely different positions. We, as in the UK, could supply our own energy altogether and we need to have that conversation, revisiting fracking etc, with world politics in mind.

You said 'we all'. I'm not being pedantic,

Yes you are

I further explained what I meant. Maybe I am seeing us as a "team" against Russia, rather than as individuals? Larger countries structuring their foreign policy around their energy needs, because they made themselves dependent on Russia affects us all - especially a small country like ourselves who have no real defence capabilities to speak of now.

And while we may import smaller amounts than other countries do, we do still import some and lack of ability to access energy from Russia will drive competition (and prices) to access other sources.

I do agree that U.K. needs to do whatever it needs to to become completely self sufficient fulfilling its own energy needs though.

I agree OP. People talk like Putin is the only one who has nuclear weapons. Nobody benefits from a nuclear war, not even Putin.

In theory yes, in reality absolutely not as that is the start of WW3. It’s horrendous watching what’s happening in a Ukraine. My family left Lithuania under Russian occupation in the 1920s and it breaks my heart seeing another generation fleeing for their lives if they can get out at all.

The world isn’t standing back and doing nothing. It’s providing arms, aid, refugee status for those who have left, increasing sanctions etc but a no fly zone could easily bring about world wide destruction on an unprecedented scale. We are dealing with a maniac and if we escalate to this extent god knows what the consequences would be.

It could stop by Zelensky putting up the white flag. Which I know seems awful but maybe it’s time his head ruled his heart? The world could then carry on with serious sanctions against Russia and maybe have negotiated a Russian withdrawal at some point down the line. Putin needs to be offered a way out to save face. At the minute he’s a cornered rat and that’s dangerous. The situation needs de escalation not escalating. Short term loss might mean a better long term situation?

You're naive if you think that Ukraine surrendering its freedom and democracy in order to be ruled by a dictatorship would bring an end to this.

The reason this is even happening is because we kept rolling over in the past when Putin has done this elsewhere.

Putin will move on to the next country. Georgia or Moldova. Maybe the Baltic states. Finland.

Putin is not going to stop. He has very similar ideological beliefs to Hitler around his perceived humiliation of Russia and loss of what he considers the motherland. He will keep going until he has "taken back" everything he wants.

I think it is appalling to condemn people in Ukraine for trying to fight to preserve freedoms you arrogantly assume will never be stolen from you like this.

i worry he's planned it this way so everyone flees west and takes refuge. Poland is pretty full now....then he bombs them all

the shelling of the corridor....the use of banned weapons...war crimes....he's no regard for rules and agreements

shift everyone into one place then go for it. bomb them (us) all

We can't have NATO shooting down Russian planes. It wouldn't help the Ukrainians if the entire continent is vapourised. Thankfully Biden seems to realise this.

Sorry but I think you are being very unreasonable. This would spark a global war like we have never seen before and sorry if I sound dramatic but possibly the end of humanity as we know it. Many many millions of people would die as a result

Look up how many nuclear warheads Russia has OP. Then think what would happen if they launched them all. Putin has already moved his family to an underground facility.