Labour and anti-semitism

[LeLaluifleur]

Apologies for DF links but ignoring the lowbrow style 'journalism' for a minute, I am perturbed about these reports.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3531852/Labour-councillor-20-suspended-claims-called-Hitler-greatest-man-history-latest-anti-Semitic-scandal-hit-Corbyn-s-party.html#comments

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3532042/Ignorant-Godless-Hateful-Corbyn-s-contempt-Jews-disgrace-withering-attack-Labour-leader-donor-backed-party-400-000-2015-Election.html

I like Corbyn a little bit but judge his cavalier attitude to anti-semitism harshly.

Has anti-semitism become cool among labour supporters or something? What is being done about the anti-semitism coming from some labour politicians and how to deal with the Islamist flavour of anti-semitism as displayed by Labour councillor Aysegul Gurbuz (and others) for examples who posted statements such as this on twitter :

"Ed Miliband is Jewish. He will never become prime minister of Britain."
"Adolf Hitler was praised as the ‘greatest man in history".

Could you imagine the outcry if a Jewish M.P. made derogatory comments about Moslems in general so why is this acceptable. Keep your nasty thoughts to yourself especially in public office.

I really don't see why anyone would NOT be alarmed by the rise of the far right/ Nazis in Europe
It's happening in Germany and France and can't be a good thing for anyone who respects democracy
Being a bit lefty is hardly comparable as a threat surely?
The left has represented progress and humanity, why is that worse ?
I

Have you not noticed all the racism recently from UKIP etc, lots of candidates have had to apologise and stand down for Racisim, quite rightly.

The history of Jewish voting internationally has been strongly Communist/Socialist and left wing, (Milliband's parents were intellectual Marxists) the recent influence of more right wing Judaisim is just that, extremely recent and still in the minority overall.
I can see why Corbyn is confident in his support overall from English Juadaism But he shouldn't become complacent and should deal with any anti semitisim racism and unsupportable public statements like these harshly and appropriately which seems to be what is happening here.

"I disagree. Loads of people are obsessed with Israel in a way there are not about, say, Iraq, Egypt, Russia,China, etc. etc"

I would agree with this. I don't feel well informed enough to comment but I wonder (speculating here) if one reason for this focus obsession on Israel's perceived inhumane policies and practices is that the world sees the Jewish people as victims who were treated so very badly on such a gigantic systematic level - and that as victims of inhumane crimes they are expected not to inflict inhumane treatment on other ethnic groups.... not sure but this is what I have thought from time to time. But it is always easy to judge without walking in other people's shoes.

A little bit like the image of the vulnerable 'good refugee' grateful and keen to integrate in Eu society that was busted somewhat after the Cologne events on NYE. Some victims become perpetrators... that's human nature sadly.

Still, there is a hypocricy in the 'left' where some people deeply believe that they are the 'goodies' and beyond reproach in terms of being humane. IME this si definitely not so. Although i'm left-leaning myself it's quite funny that many people who are more 'conservative' in how they vote behave very humanely in day-to-day life making personal sacrifices to help others, whereas some lefties are all humane in theory but ever so selfish in their dealings with friend, family or indeed strangers in need. I definitely do not believe in the lefties = good , conservatives = selfish prats, that is nonsense. getting back to the op, maybe the labour party does not believe it has a problem with some of its representatives and members? Or is it all about the Muslim vote?

The focus on Israel IMO ( and I am guilty of this) is because we in Europe are so dramatically affected by events in the Middle East ( As the whole Refugee Crisis demonstrates).
Policies of divide and rule and US aggression in the region which are traditionally supported by the current Israeli govt have devastating consequences in Europe so people feel entitled to an opinion and get quite fed up frankly with being "told" what to think on the subject.

our Governments are unfortunately complicit in a lot of what goes on In the ME so I am not suggesting otherwise, it's another reason why people are invested in feeling collective responsibility for preventing abuses of power etc
In the US you have a lot of online commentators, Jewish or Muslim or Christian saying " Just Nuke the whole of the ME and leave them to it" In Europe we are a bit more invested in that not happening as its right on our doorstep and we don't want the political or the literal fallout.

"Bertrand. Really? Really? You don't know that anti-semitism is rising in the UK? I find that quite incredible."

No, I don't. Give me some figures.

"Ophelia thinks the 'right wing Zionists' are what we need to be weary of. I don't see her fretting about chucking gay men off tower blocks or stopping women from going to school and that is very typical."

Oh, Ffs. Enough whataboutery.

"Some racists can't tell a Synagogue from a Mosque and attack Jews thinking that they are Muslim"

The vast majority of anti-semitic attacks are coming from people who know exactly what they are doing.

That hasn't been my experience with Racism unfortunately, anyone who has a middle eastern appearance, whether Jewish, Muslim, Indian, Italian etc can be a target to a drunk racist

Just done some looking up. There has been a huge rise in reported anti Semitic incidents in some areas in the UK and they remain static in others. The rise in anti Semitic incidents seems to mirror other racially motivated incidents, although there was a spike after the Charlie Hebdo atrocity. I suppose some of it has to be because people feel more able to report- which has to be good. But ignorant racist bastards are going to be fueled by world events.

It would be interesting, but obviously impossible and inflammatory, to know the background of the people who commit these crimes.

The tweets appear to be from a hijacked account

Given the extensive anti-Semitic tweets over an extended period I don't think this account was hijacked.

Give me some figures

Anti-Semitic attacks in the UK are at the highest level ever recorded. Attacks more than doubled from 2013 to 2014. I haven't seen the full year figures for 2015 but the first half of 2015 was 53% up on 2014.

The vast majority of anti-semitic attacks are coming from people who know exactly what they are doing

Agreed.

on the "Hijacked account" it's astonishing that she only discovered this after a media investigation. if my account were hijacked with pro-Nazi slogans, I would have put the matter straight immediately.

The point about anti-semitism and Zionism isn't difficult to understand. One can make points in a reasonable way, or in a way that is so over the top that people might suspect the poster's underlying motives. It's the same with lots of other topics, eg immigration, inner city crime and gang culture, travellers' rights, etc etc

prh thank you. Why do you think Labour might not be 100% robust in their dealings with anti-semitism within their ranks?

So far I have thought of these possible reasons:

• Ideological naivety: Anti-zionism by people who are neither educated enough to see the bigger picture nor really seeking to comprehend the complex context of Israel and lack self-awareness in terms of their hate of Israel and in extension all Jewish people.

• More sinister, pandering to segments (to secure votes) of the British Muslim population who are conservative Islamist in their outlook and as such have a deep seated hate towards Jews and the Jewish state. Aysegul Gurbuz of Luton (and others in the UK) are Muslims who hate Jewish people openly and don't seem to stop and think that what they say in public is not acceptable. She'd be in jail in Germany where glorifying the Holocaust is a criminal offence.

• Maybe to some Labour, lefty, or socialist minded politicians Jewish people are not 'underdog' enough.

"on the "Hijacked account" it's astonishing that she only discovered this after a media investigation. if my account were hijacked with pro-Nazi slogans, I would have put the matter straight immediately. "

Yepp, did she ever tweet to resolutely distance herself from such disgusting, stupid bigoted and unacceptable views? I think not. Instead she blamed it on her sis. Thanks sis.

I agree that if an account was hijacked she should have noticed earlier and as a politically active party member she had a responsibility to make sure that her tweets were appropriate
I doubt she will be reinstated TBH
Totally Out of Order

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/aysegul-gurbuz-labour-councillor-suspended-after-praising-hitler-on-social-media-a6977611.html

more gems by Aysegul Gurbuz Labour councillor Luton:

"In one post, it says: “If it wasn’t for my man Hitler these Jews would’ve wiped Palestine years ago. Sorry but it’s a fact. Not hating on Jews btw”.

"Another said it is impossible to sympathise with Jewish people for the crimes committed during the Holocaust “because they’re making Palestine live through the same thing”. "

"She told CAAS her sister must have sent the messages as it was a joint account."

'She said: “It was a joint account I had with my sister so I don’t know if she’s gone out and tweeted that, but I’m absolutely appalled right now."

Nice of her sis to take one on the chin.

Ok, so the viewpoint that 'right wing Zionists are what we need to be weary of.' (on a thread about anti-semitism) must never be challenged for fear of whatabouterry. I see.

I posted a link much earlier about the rise of antisemitism across Europe inc UK. Bertrand, I have to say again, I am stunned that you didn't know this given your very vocal presence and stance on threads about anti semitism.

The far right are always a fear in Europe. They are indeed growing. But the attacks on children outside a Jewish school, shoppers in a Jewish supermarket, and outside a Jewish museum were not by the far right.

Once again, imho, it is typically leftish-thinking to ignore this.

They may happily deny that there ever is an over-lap of anti-semitism and anti-zionism, they may claim that you don't know that it happens(wtaf!), but unfortunately, this is exactly what we are seeing among some extremists in Muslim communities.

Which attacks?
There were a few fabricated attacks in France recently, at a school and by a teacher, he was arrested because he had inflicted the wounds himself and given a false statement to the police

Thatis not to say that there are not real attacks as well but the false ones are troubling in a different way

There was another of these incidents recently when some Jewish people assaulted a Synagogue with machine guns, totally bizzareI just can't understand the motivation for it

Yes, Florian, its all the crazy right wingers and the crazy Jews. You're so on it!

"Luton councillor Aysegul Gurbuz said messages claiming Hitler was the "greatest man in history" made when she was "just 16 or 17" were "ill judged and offensive"."
www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-36012650

A few more thoughts on Aysegul Gurbuz's twitter F* up, she seems to have been a youngish teenager when she posted these nasty streams of consciousness.

• where did she get radicalised like this? Daily lessons at the mosque? Internet? Did her parents know about her believes and her Twitter publications?

• if she is a passionate girl interested in politics but was misguided in her youth and has since changed her views, it shows the dangers of Twitter at the hand of hot headed adolescents. One wrong tweet could destroy your credibility and career prospects for the rest of a young persons life.

but somehow I do not believe she is sincere especially as when she was found out , she lied ("it wasn't me, sis did it') rather than putting her hands up and saying What i did was wrong and learning from her mistakes. IME few people grow out of this kind of dishonesty. Once a cowardly lier, always a lier in my books.

Helmet- would it be possible for you to discuss the issue, rather than just shout at people? There's an important stuff going on here- just scattering accusations and misrepresentations of people's posts isn't going to help..