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Labour and anti-semitism

999 replies

LeLaluifleur · 10/04/2016 09:15

Apologies for DF links but ignoring the lowbrow style 'journalism' for a minute, I am perturbed about these reports.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3531852/Labour-councillor-20-suspended-claims-called-Hitler-greatest-man-history-latest-anti-Semitic-scandal-hit-Corbyn-s-party.html#comments

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3532042/Ignorant-Godless-Hateful-Corbyn-s-contempt-Jews-disgrace-withering-attack-Labour-leader-donor-backed-party-400-000-2015-Election.html

I like Corbyn a little bit but judge his cavalier attitude to anti-semitism harshly.

Has anti-semitism become cool among labour supporters or something? What is being done about the anti-semitism coming from some labour politicians and how to deal with the Islamist flavour of anti-semitism as displayed by Labour councillor Aysegul Gurbuz (and others) for examples who posted statements such as this on twitter :

"Ed Miliband is Jewish. He will never become prime minister of Britain."
"Adolf Hitler was praised as the ‘greatest man in history".

Shock Sad

OP posts:
grinkle · 01/05/2016 11:46

Tanith - given you've said you have experienced violent racism yourself, I'm not really clear which bit of what I said offended you or why you seem to fail to get my reference to 'people wanting me dead'. Racists aren't, sadly, cuddly people who just say a few mean things to get a rise and then sod off. Within living memory, six million Jews (including many of my relatives) were murdered in a Western European country that was perfectly civilised, much like this one in fact. The Germans weren't uniquely bad, or mad, or even uniquely anti-Semitic - the anti-Semitism in Germany pre-Hitler was pretty standard for Europe at that time, and in fact Jews were probably treated better there than in most European countries.

In more recent times ie within the last couple of years, Jews have been murdered in France and Belgium (not a million miles away from here) for nothing more than being Jewish - Jews going shopping, Jewish kids at school, Jews out visiting a museum. I cannot pray in a synagogue without a permant guard, because the risk of violent attack is recognised. If you still don't 'get' why the risk of violent attack is real, then I don't really know what to say.

If I have learnt one thing from my parents' sad experience fleeing Nazi Germany, and from the experience of my relatives who did not manage to get away, it is that when anti-Semites say mean shit, you take them seriously. Hitler didn't start by murdering Jews, because, well, ordinary Germans might have been a bit shocked. The process started slowly - by subtly (and then increaingly unsubtly) dehumanising Jews, by low-level attacks and attacks on those who stood by them. Until one day, after a few years of this, Jews could be attacked and even murdered with impunity, and no-one turned a hair. Some even welcomed it.

The way to prevent another Holocaust - the only way - and indeed to prevent all racism, is zero tolerance of discrimination. Whether you find it offensive is really neither here nor there - if you don't think Ken's comments were in any way offensive, that speaks volumes about you, but you're not really the issue here. The issue is that Ken made unsubstantiated and unsubstantiable accusations about anti-Semitism and Zionism and Jews. And he needs to be brought to account for it. And low-level anti-Semitism everywhere, but particularly on the left, who really ought to know better, needs to be stamped out.

Racism is NEVER acceptable. Whether the victims are Jews, or the Irish, or whoever. Why I need to explain this to someone who has themselves been a victim of racism, I genuinely have no idea, but presumably you do.

I still hope (and believe) that you and I are on the same side in this fight. At least if what you say about yourself is true. Not clear why you're trying to pick an argument with me. I have no interest in one.

Limer · 01/05/2016 11:56

Many Labour members never think past being expected to be pro-Palestinian, and therefore anti-Semitic. KL is not just pro-Palestinian, but hugely pro-Muslim because he needed their votes back in the day.

Not sure how the Labour party can get itself out of this one - they'll have to apply a hierarchy of discrimination or something equally crazy. It'll be fun watching them try though.

grinkle · 01/05/2016 11:59

Ah, "Professor", you never did say where you did your undergraduate degree or who you studied under. Go on - I'd imagine I'd know who you were referring to.

And remind me which reputed research university is a fan of holocaust revisionism?

grinkle · 01/05/2016 12:00

By the way, I cannot stress how impressed I am that a real, highly-reputed history professor would deign to spend so much time putting me, a mere mum, straight on a parenting forum.

I have no idea how you find the time! Grin

Puzzledandpissedoff · 01/05/2016 12:12

Many Labour members never think past being expected to be pro-Palestinian, and therefore anti-Semitic. KL is not just pro-Palestinian, but hugely pro-Muslim because he needed their votes back in the day

Exactly, and that's why I also struggle with how they're going to deal with this one - unless they just rely on the news moving on to something else and hope people forget?

I imagine one of the problems for those who slavishly back Palestine is that the people willingly elected a party whose freely stated aim is to see Israel destroyed. Hard to see how they can square that with their supposedly liberal consciences...

forkhandles4candles · 01/05/2016 12:28

I am not going to tell you where and with whom I studied in the UK, as it would allow people to identify me and some people on this threaD seem somewhat unhinged and incapable of rational debate. I did spend 3 years at the FU in Berlin. FWIW Tim Mason, RJ Evans, Detlef Peukert and History Workshop have been influences. I think it is part of the slurrIng to call Brenner a revisionIst,. That has a very specific meaning in this context and is just an attempt to close down debate. As Harnap says, more not less historical research is required to determine the issues at stake.

Marmite59 · 01/05/2016 12:30

Grinkle: bravo. You've said with more eloquence, bravery and chutzpah than what I've been trying to say throughout the thread.

So how do we create an environment in which one can be very critical of Israel without apologists for Israeli behaviour, (stealing other peoples land and treating the indigenous inhabitants as second class) crying antisemitism?

Or, alternatively, we could look at creating an environment where Jewish children feel safe going to school, where they can study without an armed guard, where they can attend Uni without being called Zios, and they could go around the streets wearing, say, a keffiyeh.

I wonder which might be the most pressing priority?

grinkle · 01/05/2016 12:31

If the aim was truly to be pro-Palestinian, and not just anti-Israel-in-a-kneejerk-fashion then those on the left would be asking some pretty serious questions of their 'friends' in Hamas as to why they have refused to allow free elections (well, any elections full stop) since they came to power. Over a decade ago. They would be asking why much of the millions donated by western governments to build housing has been spent on building terror tunnels to attack Israel. And why much has ended up in the bank accounts of Hamas leaders. They'd ask serious questions about why rockets were fired at Israel from civilian areas by Hamas fighters, thus endangering Palestinian civilians. They'd ask what happened to Palestinian civilians executed for supposedly collaborating Israel, without trial. They'd ask about rights for LGBT and women under Hamas.

But they don't ask these questions. Because it doesn't fit with their preferred narrative.

Marmite59 · 01/05/2016 12:58

They also might ask why Hamas throws gay men off buildings and has a charter which quotes the Protocols and calls for the extermination of all Jews. Now why does that sound like?

OrangesandLemonsNow · 01/05/2016 13:08

some people on this threaD seem somewhat unhinged

Don't be so ridiculous

grinkle · 01/05/2016 13:22

Quite, oranges.

I shall add to my previous list:

  1. It's not anti-Semitism, it's just that you are over-sensitive/easily offended/unhinged.
grinkle · 01/05/2016 13:22

forkhandles - how would you prefer we describe someone who was a revisionist if they were...er...a revisionist? I there a 'nice' word for revisionist you would rather we used, to salve your conscience at supporting one?

You don't seem to have learned much from your supposed influences, if what you say is true. RJ Evans would be turning in his grave at your support for Brenner - were he not still alive.

grinkle · 01/05/2016 13:24

Sssh, marmite. Someone might hear you.

DarlingCherieLiebling · 01/05/2016 13:30

"So how do we create an environment in which one can be very critical of Israel without apologists for Israeli behaviour, (stealing other peoples land and treating the indigenous inhabitants as second class) crying antisemitism?"

In exactly the same way as you talk about any other issues with our resorting to racism. Simple, no?

Interestingly, some Labour lefties have this down to a tee wrt Islamist terrorism making damn sure not to say anything 'racist' or 'islamophobic'. The very same people who shout 'racist' at anyone who dares to question some of the less savoury conservative Islamist practices seem to be unable to see how a lot of ant-zionsit rhetoric is in actual fact anti-Semitic and don't allegedly know how to discuss political issues without resorting to anti-semitism. Really odd.

grinkle · 01/05/2016 13:34

cherie - yes, as nicely pointed out on here somewhere, Ken has been neatly hoist by his own petard - after years of insisting on the importance of sensitive language when referring to minorities, even their more unsavoury aspects, he can hardly complain when he is picked up for his own unsavoury language towards minorities.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 01/05/2016 13:52

They also might ask why Hamas throws gay men off buildings and has a charter which quotes the Protocols and calls for the extermination of all Jews

They might indeed, but I wouldn't hold your breath. That's often the trouble with supporting an extremist organisation ... it's too easy to research their real aims and when they don't play nicely their adherents are left looking a bit silly

Incidentally, I'd advise caution if anyone thinks KL will be cast into outer darkness. I'm old enough to remember the breadth of his activities/influence within Labour and his position at their heart and soul; I'd love to be wrong, but honestly don't believe they'll jettison someone like that

Limer · 01/05/2016 14:24

Labour needs to take a good, hard look at itself over this. It can't support any supposedly persecuted religious minorities while also claiming to be pro-LGBT and feminist. KL should do the same.

I'd like to see Labour distancing itself from being pro or anti the various religions, and stand up for human rights, pure and simple.

grinkle · 01/05/2016 14:27

Well, they've put off the investigation now till July, ie kicked it into the long grass, so I think you're right, puzzled. Hoping that everyone will have forgotten by then.

The truly depressing thing for everyone on the left is that the Tory strategy of divide-and-rule is working wonders. Left-wing Jews don't feel able to support a party that is anti-Semitic, while everyone else blames the messenger. As a Jew, I don't wish to be blamed for being over-sensitive and hence causing Labour's downfall. I would genuinely like to see a non-racist left-wing party that could stop the Tories getting away with murder on the NHS, education, housing - the things that actually matter to ordinary people, of any or no faith.

Instead, Ken and his ilk have supplied the raw material to ensure that we can have anti-Semitism stories in the news to bury what the Tories are up to, time and time again. But of course Ken and his fans don't blame Ken for being anti-Semitic in the first place. No, it's all the fault of the Jews for moaning, or "the Jewish lobby" the right-wing media for reporting on it. As though they were going to overlook such a gift.

grinkle · 01/05/2016 14:34

Limer, standing up for members of religious minorities = standing up for human rights. Members of religious minorities are humans too! There is no conflict between those two things. Labour shouldn't be pro or anti any religion, I agree. And it certainly shouldn't be a cheerleader for any one religion over any others.

The bit I feel most uncomfortable with in all the recent discussions over Labour's anti-Semitism issues has been the suggestion that there ought to be any kind of extra protection for Jews. Jews don't want or need that.

Jonathan Freedland puts it well here (the headline more than the article, which goes on a bit):

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/29/left-jews-labour-antisemitism-jewish-identity

Limer · 01/05/2016 14:49

Limer, standing up for members of religious minorities = standing up for human rights.

Not always. The Labour party has a habit of tying itself in knots over this. If a religious minority is discriminating against others, e.g. treating women as inferior to men, persecuting LGBT people, etc., then the Labour party (and everyone else) should be standing up for the persecuted people, not the religion.

ChillieJeanie · 01/05/2016 14:55

Apparently this view of Livingstone's was known in the Labour party years ago. Labour Uncut claims Ed Miliband was fully aware in 2012 and still backed his candidacy for London Mayor. This is probably why Livingstone didn't have any qualms about saying it in public this week.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 01/05/2016 15:07

they've put off the investigation now till July, ie kicked it into the long grass

So I see

How drearily predictable Hmm

grinkle · 01/05/2016 15:36

Limer - yes, the victimhood Olympics a pp mentioned above (sorry, can't remember who it was, but thanks to whoever you are).

Of course - as mentioned on the Guardian thread elsewhere - one of the most infuriating things the Guardian and fellow travellers on the left have done in recent years is throw women/LGBT/Jews etc under a bus on occasions when they've been attacked by their preferred minority, as in the attacks at New Year. That was inexcusable.

And of course Ken, with his warm embrace of Qaradawi, is the worst of these offenders.

I was just trying to point out that members of religions can be just as much the victims of these things as anyone else, often more so (eg the Yazidis).

grinkle · 01/05/2016 15:53

So how do we create an environment in which one can be very critical of Israel without apologists for Israeli behaviour, (stealing other peoples land and treating the indigenous inhabitants as second class) crying antisemitism?

A good answer to that is an article by Nick Cohen in yesterday's Guardian.

"When feminists talk about rape, they are not told as a matter of course “but women are always making false rape accusations”. If they were, they would suspect that their opponents wanted to deny the existence of sexual violence. Yet it is standard in polite society to hear that accusations of antisemitism are always made in bad faith to delegitimise justifiable criticism of Israel. I accept that there are Jews who say that all criticism of Israel is antisemitic. For her part, a feminist must accept that there are women who make false accusations of rape. But that does not mean that antisemitism does not exist, any more than it means that rape never happens."

www.theguardian.com/politics/commentisfree/2016/apr/30/labour-antisemitism-ken-livingstone-george-galloway

Limer · 01/05/2016 16:05

Grinkle True - and the persecution of the Yazidis (and all the other Christian minorities) is something that the Left would be screaming about, if only the persecution were the other way round. As it is, they have to keep mum (or at most mumble a few platitudes), as it's their preferred minority who's in the wrong.

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