Labour and anti-semitism

[LeLaluifleur]

Apologies for DF links but ignoring the lowbrow style 'journalism' for a minute, I am perturbed about these reports.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3531852/Labour-councillor-20-suspended-claims-called-Hitler-greatest-man-history-latest-anti-Semitic-scandal-hit-Corbyn-s-party.html#comments

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3532042/Ignorant-Godless-Hateful-Corbyn-s-contempt-Jews-disgrace-withering-attack-Labour-leader-donor-backed-party-400-000-2015-Election.html

I like Corbyn a little bit but judge his cavalier attitude to anti-semitism harshly.

Has anti-semitism become cool among labour supporters or something? What is being done about the anti-semitism coming from some labour politicians and how to deal with the Islamist flavour of anti-semitism as displayed by Labour councillor Aysegul Gurbuz (and others) for examples who posted statements such as this on twitter :

"Ed Miliband is Jewish. He will never become prime minister of Britain."
"Adolf Hitler was praised as the ‘greatest man in history".

"If this is your pet topic you are probably aware that many cultures practice circumcision in actual fact male circumcision is actively promoted to reduce HIV in various parts of Africa."

Yes. I am aware of this. I do not think it is appropriate to go into the minutiae of this topic on a thread like this. Except to say that in a culture which is highly resistant for various complex reasons to condom use, there is an argument to encourage circumcision because it very slightly reduces the risk of passing on an endemic HIv. This is not why Jewish people practice infant male circumcision.

As for the messages you post. The "Jews have big noses" type things are completely unacceptable, and anyone making them should be punished by the party- or by the law if it constitutes hate speech. But there must be a clear divide between criticism of the state of Israel and of Zionists and anti semitism. And shutting down the former with accusations of the latter is unacceptable.

**I have been in the past, lambasted as an anti Semite on Mumsnet because I am openly anti Zionist and opposed to infant male circumcision. Obfuscating on this issue is a way of shutting down debate. People become afraid to speak out about the government of israel's policies because they are afraid of being labelled as anti Semitic. And opposition becomes impossible.

It seems to me the exact opposite has happened on this thread (and often happens elsewhere as well). Someone brought up legitimate instances of appalling anti-Semitism and instead of even discussing the implications of those actual examples, the discussion was directed toward the distinction between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism. Talk about obfuscation!

We all understand that anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism are not the same, and it is certainly possible to be one without the other. And yes, there are some (I might argue with "many," although I guess that's not a specific term either) Jews that do not support the existence of an independent Jewish state in Israel. But it is absurdly facile to suggest that the anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism do not often share similar motivations, and deeply troubling how often one is used as cover for the other.

"Someone brought up legitimate instances of appalling anti-Semitism and instead of even discussing the implications of those actual examples," What sort of discussion did you want? I said that the people who were accused of making the comments were rightly suspended and are being investigated. If they said them they should be disciplined by the Party and by the law if it is hate speech. What more is there to say?

"But it is absurdly facile to suggest that the anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism do not often share similar motivations,"

So are you saying it is impossible to be anti Zionist without also being anti Semitic?

It seems to me the exact opposite has happened on this thread (and often happens elsewhere as well). Someone brought up legitimate instances of appalling anti-Semitism and instead of even discussing the implications of those actual examples, the discussion was directed toward the distinction between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism. Talk about obfuscation!

This is what Bertrand (and others) habitually do.

"Someone brought up legitimate instances of appalling anti-Semitism and instead of even discussing the implications of those actual examples," What sort of discussion did you want? I said that the people who were accused of making the comments were rightly suspended and are being investigated.

No, your first comment, as ever, was to tell the op that Being Jewish and being Zionist are not the same thing.

Here's a report about 'anti-semitism' in Europe over a 4 month period.
www.antisem.eu/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Global-Report-November-2014-February-2015.pdf

Bertrand, perhaps you should contact them with more of your very helpful: 'Ooh but you guys, anti-semitism is not the same as anti-zionism'.

OP, antisemitism is always dismissed on Mumsnet. They want to talk about how shit Israel is. It's like being a member of the Labour Party sometimes ;)

"It seems to me the exact opposite has happened on this thread (and often happens elsewhere as well). Someone brought up legitimate instances of appalling anti-Semitism and instead of even discussing the implications of those actual examples, the discussion was directed toward the distinction between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism. Talk about obfuscation!"

I agree.

"What sort of discussion did you want? I said that the people who were accused of making the comments were rightly suspended and are being investigated. If they said them they should be disciplined by the Party and by the law if it is hate speech. What more is there to say?"

and
"So are you saying it is impossible to be anti Zionist without also being anti Semitic?"

Oh dear, i take issue with such simplistic tunnel vision approaches to discussing potentially tricky or sensitive topics. Just because everyone can equally post on threads not everyone's opinions are enlightened or enlightening, I am learning through MN News how to seek out the former and gnome the latter. Easier said than done but simplistic ideology people tend to derail, often because they are unable to see the bigger picture and often are full of hate.

I made it clear ( i thought) what the thread is about. About Labour not cracking down more rigorously and clearly on anti-semitism, which indeed seems to be disguised as Zionism.

And yes the white English Pro palestine representative -foot soldiers-- distributing leaflets and gathering signatures at family events have many times tried to involve me and each and every time their talk and argumentation reminded me of people distributing leaflets for Witnesses Jehova and their hate of Jews / Israel reminded me of anti-abortionists. I don't waste my time with them because they did not come across as self reflective or open minded.

gnome? maybe I should try that ignore rather.

I find it very frustrating that however much and however often I have condemned anti semitism on this and other threads, those posts are ignored.

"I made it clear ( i thought) what the thread is about. About Labour not cracking down more rigorously and clearly on anti-semitism, which indeed seems to be disguised as Zionism"

Is it? It seemed to me that the links you made in your first post covered both anti semitism- completely unacceptable, should be punished by both the Party and, if at all possible under the law of the land, and anti Zionism- which is a perfectly acceptable political stance.

"I find it very frustrating that however much and however often I have condemned anti semitism on this and other threads, those posts are ignored."

What response did you hope to get Bert? Genuine question. I'd love to hear more about what others think about anti-Semitic attitudes and rhetoric in the Labour party and also in British universities. How can this be challenged? Who can challenge it?

It's ludicrous to accuse Labour of anti-Semitism when their position is anti nationalistic and opposed to right wing Zionism.

The right wing Zionist Isreali government are guilty of the most heinous crimes, and violations of human rights towards the Palestinians , and the west are turning a blind eye, in fact actively encouraging them. This is the problem.

Corbyn is left leaning. He is not pro Zionist. Neither should we be.

I do not support Israel's occupation of the West Bank but many Israelis do not support it either. This undercurrent of anti-semitism (it's NOT limited to anti-zionism) in elements of the Labour party however is extremely troubling and the fact that it is coming out of the woodwork is even more troubling, it indicates that people expect to get away with making such comments.

If we consider the larger picture in Europe right now I think it's clear that anti-semitism is serious problem that's only getting worse. Unprecedented numbers of Jews are leaving countries like France and Belgium to move to Israel because they no longer feel safe in Europe. The Jewish population of Malmo has decreased by nearly 50% in recent years due to violence and harassment.

www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/04/is-it-time-for-the-jews-to-leave-europe/386279/

The irony of this to me is that those who disagree with Israel are helping to create a situation where the only place left that Jewish people will safe is Israel, certainly not the UK.

Well, I hoped not to be called anti Semitic for a start!

I think, as I said earlier, that there is anti semitism in most, if not all, British institutions- George Osborne changing his name is evidence of this. British society has always had an complex and ambivalent attitude to Jewish people. It is more complex than other -isms in that historically, there have always been Jewish people on the inside of the Establishment a way that black and Asian people and women haven't been. So anti semitism is often more subtle and slippery and harder to challenge than other discriminations. Obviously it has to be challenged wherever and whenever is is detected. But there is, it seems to me, much less of the "Jews have big noses" sort of anti semitism (which is easy to spot and challenge, as the Labour Party has done in the cases you quote) and much more insidious, institutional attiudes. And it really doesn't help to try and silence people by automatically equating criticism of the government of the state of Israel with anti semitism.

The left are not and never will be anti-Semitic. It's the right-wing Zionist / Pro-nationalist / Nazis / Puratists that we need to be weary of.

It's ludicrous to accuse Labour of anti-Semitism when their position is anti nationalistic and opposed to right wing Zionism.

Are you saying that there is no anti semitism in Labour at all?

You will probably find more anti-Semitism in the Tory party.

Ophelia - I find your blanket assertion that the Labour party is not and will never be anti-semitic strange in the face of clear evidence of anti-semitic behaviour from Labour party members? This isn't a zero-sum game you know, the Labour party can be officially against right wing zionism AND contain elements within the party who are anti-semitic. You'd have to keep your fingers in your ears and your eyes closed permanently to remain ignorant of this. This is probably the worst time to be Jewish in Europe currently since WWII. Read the Atlantic article I posted above.

This Guardian piece does a pretty decent job of summing up why Corbyn needs to address this problem as a matter of urgency.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/mar/18/labour-antisemitism-jews-jeremy-corbyn

It's impossible to criticize Israel without being accused of anti-Semitism.
Anyone with an inking of how right-wing Israeli politics works will know this and will have experienced this.

The Guardian are well known anti-Corbyn and pro-Zionist. Would take any article with a pinch of salt.

Ophelia - I find your blanket assertion that the Labour party is not and will never be anti-semitic strange in the face of clear evidence of anti-semitic behaviour from Labour party members?

Me too.

I dont know about the tories much, but of course there is antisemitism in the left, and amongst conspiracy theorists who proclaim about some mystial new world order, illuminati etc etc.

That doesnt make JC or the labour party itself antisemites for wanting to find some way of improving peace in the middle east, and both sides of the conflict need to be heard. The tory party seem to tink that even by listening to Hamas they are being antisemitic, which is obviously crazy.

"The Guardian are well known anti-Corbyn and pro-Zionist"

The Guardian is well known as being pro-zionist? That's a new one!

You will find anti-Semitism in the Tory party at a far greater scale.

But, hey. The press are only focusing on their prolific tax dodging for now.

The Guardian hate Corbyn! It's not a new one in the slightest if you care to analyse the evidence.

"You will probably find more anti-Semitism in the Tory party." Labour is 'my' party so i am currently more concerned and shocked at the events there.