Labour and anti-semitism

[LeLaluifleur]

Apologies for DF links but ignoring the lowbrow style 'journalism' for a minute, I am perturbed about these reports.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3531852/Labour-councillor-20-suspended-claims-called-Hitler-greatest-man-history-latest-anti-Semitic-scandal-hit-Corbyn-s-party.html#comments

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3532042/Ignorant-Godless-Hateful-Corbyn-s-contempt-Jews-disgrace-withering-attack-Labour-leader-donor-backed-party-400-000-2015-Election.html

I like Corbyn a little bit but judge his cavalier attitude to anti-semitism harshly.

Has anti-semitism become cool among labour supporters or something? What is being done about the anti-semitism coming from some labour politicians and how to deal with the Islamist flavour of anti-semitism as displayed by Labour councillor Aysegul Gurbuz (and others) for examples who posted statements such as this on twitter :

"Ed Miliband is Jewish. He will never become prime minister of Britain."
"Adolf Hitler was praised as the ‘greatest man in history".

Ophelia - I agree the Guardian is no fan of JC. I'm referring to your declaration that the Guardian is pro-zionist! You certainly aren't holding back from making bold assertions.

Well it's catch 22 for Labour, stand up to right-wing zionists and be accused of being anti-semite racists, or don't stand up to them and be accused of being racist anti-semites.

On the face of it these accusations are part if a smear campaign and we all know it.

The left are not and never will be anti-semitic

Really, who can be arsed debating with people who come out with that crap?

"The left are not and never will be anti-semitic" That really is utter bollocks, as anyone who knows anything about the history of left wing politics knows.

What resonates more than anything with me is that my grandfather came to the UK as a terrified 8 year old boy through the Kindertransport (no other members of his family survived the Nazis). All his life here in the UK he was a committed and locally involved member of the Labour party because he believed in Labour's principles. I grew up in a very socially active Labour supporting household as a result. I can only imagine how he would feel about all this and what's happenign in Europe if he was alive today.

Nick Cohen talked about this back in 2006 in What's Left. The hard left has "form" where this area is concerned.

Of course, reasonable criticism of ZIonism is one thing, and is not necessarily anti-semitic. I am opposed to many aspects of Israel's policies. Sometimes there is a kind of weird "emphasis problem" though--like, people will go on and on about Israel while keeping really quiet about horrific misogyny and homophobic and extremism among the Palestinians. The UN has been guilty of this as well.

"If we consider the larger picture in Europe right now I think it's clear that anti-semitism is serious problem that's only getting worse. Unprecedented numbers of Jews are leaving countries like France and Belgium to move to Israel because they no longer feel safe in Europe. The Jewish population of Malmo has decreased by nearly 50% in recent years due to violence and harassment."

yup, this.

It's like a kind of weird cycle. Israel creates more settlements, which stirs up more anti-Zionism/anti-semitism/whatever all over the world, which results in Jews feeling less safe in western countries, leaving to jews migrating to Israel, which creates the need for more Israeli settlements. Rinse and repeat.

people will go on and on about Israel while keeping really quiet about horrific misogyny and homophobic and extremism among the Palestinians

This is a false premise though. People are opposed to what is essentially an apartheid government in Israel, they are not against "Israelis". It is possible to simultaneously condemn religions and cultures which promote misogeny, homophobia and extremism, while condemning a regionally-powerful state which acts unlawfully.

People are opposed to what is essentially an apartheid government in Israel, they are not against "Israelis".

That is a false premise.

Some people may feel like. Others are anti-zionist - they are against Jewish people having a homeland. It doesn't matter if it's Netanyahu in charge or Mary Poppins.

It's not about condemning a state which acts unlawfully - its about not accepting the state's existence.

So yes, they are "against Israelis" - if you genuinely have never ever seen any vitriol directed against 'Zionists', (I dont believe it) then you should count yourself lucky.

The Luton Labour councillor claiming her Twitter account had been hacked had anti-Semite tweets going back four years, no?

Can someone explain to be whilst Israel is singledout for such vitriol from the Left,whilst so little attention is given to the human rights nightmare that is every other Middle Eastern state?

It's all very complicated. When I was a child growing up in a socialist household, support for the new (ish) state of Israel was very strong. The Left's position at the at time was very clear. Both Left and Right thought of Israel as the "plucky underdog" and support was unanimous. It took a long time for people to be disillusioned by successive government action- and that knee jerk support is still quite widespread. Particularly in the States, where the Jewish lobby is very important for presidential hopefuls.

Do people think that anti semitism is getting worse in the UK?

So yes, they are "against Israelis" - if you genuinely have never ever seen any vitriol directed against 'Zionists', (I dont believe it) then you should count yourself lucky.

There is vitriol all over the media and the Internet, of course I've seen it.

My point is that you can object strongly to the behviour of the Israeli government - and indeed have grave doubts about the rightness of using religion as the basis for statehood - without being racist or anti-semitic.

so little attention is given to the human rights nightmare that is every other Middle Eastern state?

Really? Just to give one example, there are many on the left (including the current labour leadership) with a long history of objecting to the UK government's cosy relationship with middle eastern dictatorships like Saudi Arabia.

Bertrand how could you be so disingenuous!

There are countless threads where posters are worried about rising anti- Semitism in Europe inc uk and on each one, there you are, first in, explaining they are deliberately confusing anti Semitism with anti Zionism.

I am not disingenuous. I asked, quite legitimately if people think anti semitism is worsening in the UK. There has always been anti semitism in the UK- is it getting worse?

And I made the anti semitism/anti Zionism point at the beginning because the opening post gave two examples- one which was so blatantly anti Semitic there seemed to be no room for discussion, and one which was anti Zionist.

Bertrand I can't speak for the UK, but across continental Europe racism and intolerance are on the rise, and it would astonish me if anti-semitism wasn't also increasing as part of that general trend.

Don't think that Labour are any more racist or anti Semitic than any other party. They have traditionally lead the way in tackling racism and seem to be dealing with this incident appropriately. Considering that the last Labour leader and many other prominent Labour politicians are Jewish you could say that the OPs concerns are inflated and inflammatory. Labour also welcome many other minorities and immigrants into the party and are better represented with minority candidates as far as I know, historically.
Traditionally in the US most Jewish people vote democrat despite much influence by the Zionist lobby on the far right within Washington.
Unfortunately the Zionist far right alliance in the US paint the entire Jewish and Israeli population as belonging to their camp and agenda when this is far from the case.

Saudi and the UAE employ PR companies to intimidate critics and polish their public image, they are litigious and prolific. They also intimidate politicians to lean on the Press to quash inconvenient stories of barbarism. There was a famous email exchange between Thatcher and the Saudi Govt which illustrates this unhealthy relationship. There is a similar situation with The Zionist lobby.
Apparently having power and wealth and excessive licence to abuse both is not enough - they actually want us to like and respect them!! And will go to extreme lengths to portray themselves as beyond reproach. Some of the Saudi statements in the press recently illustrate the fact that they do not understand the western idea of "Freedom of the Press" and are quite indignant about having to justify themselves. They consider themselves divinities it seems in the old school manner of royalty.

Hate crime is on the rise and the majority is against Muslims, but also Jews, the poor and disabled. Some racists can't tell a Synagogue from a Mosque and attack Jews thinking that they are Muslim :(

Some racists can't tell a Synagogue from a Mosque and attack Jews thinking that they are Muslim
Do you have a link Florian? I don't believe 'accidental' or 'mistaken identity' attacks on Jews are widespread at all.

Mistrigirl, I don't think Ophelia is worried at all about human rights abuses the world over. She says It's the right-wing Zionist / Pro-nationalist / Nazis / Puratists that we need to be weary of. I'm not entirely sure what that means, but I think its an attitude very typical of a certain type of conspiracy theorist, ranty, lefty. (sorry op :))

Bertrand. Really? Really? You don't know that anti-semitism is rising in the UK? I find that quite incredible.

Helmet well, I don't understand your last comment at all. There are conspiracy theorists at both ends of the political spectrum.

As far as anti-semitism is concerned, most of the nationalist and/or far right parties on the rise across Europe have anti-semitic roots. This includes the French national front, and UKIP, which has attracted most of what used to be the BNP and NF in the UK. So it's reasonable to assume that anti-semitism is on the rise in politics, and probably also in the wider population. However, it is probably true to say that some far right parties are both anti-semitic and pro-Zionist at the same time (this is also probably the case for many U.S. republicans).

You said that people are concerned about countries all over the world not just Israel.

I disagree. Loads of people are obsessed with Israel in a way there are not about, say, Iraq, Egypt, Russia,China, etc. etc

Ophelia thinks the 'right wing Zionists' are what we need to be weary of. I don't see her fretting about chucking gay men off tower blocks or stopping women from going to school and that is very typical.

Considering that the Kippah and the Kufic are similar looking to the western eye, add a long beard and white robe I think that your average racist wouldn't be well enough informed to know the difference.
The incident Im referring to was a couple of years ago in North London.
Also my exDP being Italian/French and having a bit of stubble was called a "Dirty Arab" in the street after 9/11 I'd be very suprised if it is not more commonplace.

I think you are being a bit Goady here
We are replying to an article about Labour anti semitisim
So if you want to criticise Isis start a thread about it
Don't do the whatabboutisim dance

That's just silly. Many of us - in fact most intelligent people - can manage to be simultaneously outraged by abuses of human rights and international law wherever they happen. Most people lack time, though, so they may only actively campaign on a narrow range of issues.

I find apartheid policies in Israel offensive. That doesn't mean that I condone human rights abuses elsewhere. Quite the opposite! I am in favour of everyone operating under the same obligations regarding international law and human rights. That includes but is not restricted to Israel.