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Brexit

Westministenders: Simple Solutions for Complex Tasks Never Work

986 replies

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 10:50

Time for some honesty: Simple Solutions for Complex Task Never Work.

There is a quote which I forget, which relates to authoritarian leaders, that is along the lines of being afraid of the man who offers you an easy solution.

This is the most basic thing of popularism.

What should worry you most is that EVERY politician in the UK is currently offering you this. Even the Remainers.

No one is up to the job. No one is really admitting the complexity of the task.

A People's Vote won't solve that. Its a 'solution' that might not even be possible at this stage due to the time it takes to set one up - which is lost from virtually all conversation. And even then, how the question is phrased is so unbeleivably contensious with parliament so divided its impossible to see how you could get them to agree to the wording.

Its arrogant to assume that remainers would win: there is still no honesty in the debate and the lies persist. Without being honesty in politics, any referendum is a car crash waiting to happen. Its Cameron's mistake and others are in danger of making it again.

The only purpose it may serve, is to start reframing the debate but that will only happen if there is a conscious decision by all to be more honest about the current state of play.

Even the thought that the only way out for politicians is to 'hand it back to the electorate' as they are too crap to sort it their internal squabbles is a nonsense.

The only way you could hand it back to the public in the time frame would be to trigger a General Election, and there is certainly no will to do that from the Tory Party and the numbers are not there to trigger it otherwise. Not that a General Election looks likely to create anything but another hung parliament and thus no way forward.

In terms of May's leadership, its difficult to see what happens next. With Remainers as well as Leavers torpedoing The Turd Way, its dead in the water. May has to go back to the drawing board. But there the alternative will have to align further either with one or the other group: and the EU will NEVER agree to a deal which is closer to the Brexiteer / Davis position.

May either has to go hard, and then compromise later with the EU. Probably to the point which is remainier than The Turd Way anyway or she has to go softer from the off, which would send the Brexiteers into a rage and trigger a leadership contest for certain. If May goes softer, there might be more inclination from Labour to agree to it and save her neck. But even then Labour tribalism runs so deep, its hard to see that happening either. They might promise it, then pull out, causing even more issues later on.

Whether she could survive a leadership contest is still open to debate. There are the numbers to trigger a contest. But to oust her? Don't know. And then there's the question of the alternative. Who steps up and who then answers the question of what the plan is and then how do they get the EU to agree to it?

All the while the clock is ticking.

There is virtually no time for anything now. Everything is up shit creek. The only thing that is likely is No Deal. And thats what the ERG want. They are happy just to cause trouble and obstruct everything from here on in.

But it is entirely possible that faced with that, the EU would agree to an article 50 extension. Provided we asked for one. Who would be brave enough.

If we want a deal and we want Brexit to be successful we HAVE to have an extension.

Otherwise the possibility of remaining also comes back into play.

I don't see a way out in any direction, apart from the death grip of the ERG dragging us all kicking and screaming over the cliff to absoluete chaos.

The ONLY way forward, is a massive swallowing of pride and reigning in of ego to a cross party solution AND compromising with the EU. That seems like a cake hope right now.

Remember the equation that will dominate the next few weeks:

Number of Con votes in 2017 - Number of votes for UKIP in 2015 = How much each Tory MP is shitting themselves about their job.

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woman11017 · 17/07/2018 20:25

And the penny has dropped for Jo Swinson
The discrepancies with yesteray's voting numbers and this with pairing. Would either have affected final votes, and would the speaker have any say in any of this?

thecatfromjapan · 17/07/2018 20:30

Shock and 😡 for Jo Swinson.

smilethoyourheartisbreaking · 17/07/2018 20:30

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

woman11017 · 17/07/2018 20:30

Leadsom 'assured' the pairing, to Smith and Pidcock too. I see.........

PineappleSunrise · 17/07/2018 20:33

After everything that's happened, I'm surprised anyone trusts anyone in government to do anything legal/honourable/moral.

OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 17/07/2018 20:40

She certainly earned her nickname of Loathsome didn't she?

woman11017 · 17/07/2018 20:45

Not holding my breath, but GE could have been called in 2 weeks, following VONC.

@jameschappers
James Chapman Retweeted Jo Swinson
If this allegation is confirmed, it could prompt an attempt in the Lords to send the amendment back to the Commons

@joswinson
Just how low will your govt stoop @theresa_may? When @andrealeadsom delayed proxy voting motions, she assured those of us who were pregnant that we would be paired when necessary. Today your govt broke…

@tnewtondunn
Breaking a pairing deal is one of the biggest No Nos that the Commons has. A truly desperate move by the Govt...

Yaralie · 17/07/2018 20:46

I can hardly believe that in 2016, I was rooting for Theresa May to become PM, until I remember that the alternative was Andrea Loathsome.

OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 17/07/2018 20:46

@bbclaurak
On Jo Swinson
This is really bad - let’s see if Tories have an explanation? Pairing is one of ways our bonkers parliamentary system works fairly

@SamCoatesTimes
Replying to @bbclaurak
Government sources say Brandon Lewis voted “by mistake”

I just hate it when my only job is to not vote and I completely forget and vote anyway Hmm

woman11017 · 17/07/2018 20:48

@SamCoatesTimes
Government sources say Brandon Lewis voted “by mistake”

Yaralie · 17/07/2018 20:49

Really????

OlennasWimple · 17/07/2018 20:49

Like I said unless bedbound...turn up. What the Tory's have done is disgusting but being an MP means going beyond the call of duty. And I wouldn't have trusted those fuckers

But that's where things are moving really fast. It would have been unconscionable to fuck around with pairings in the past. They're one of those things that work (or used to) because all parties recognise that sometimes people can't make it in. There are very few organisations that could gather all 650 members in one place on the same day every single time that they met.

Clearly in this brave new world, however, all the rules have gone out of the window. Cheating fuckers

Tanith · 17/07/2018 20:54

And the other pairings? Did they "forget" not to vote, too? Hmm

TheElementsSong · 17/07/2018 20:57

Well, it seems to me that The People (given that only 17.4 million of them exist) truly have the Government that They deserve.

OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 17/07/2018 20:59

@faisalislam
This sounds bad re Swinsob - Labour say though that “All of our pairs were honoured today by the Tories inc two maternity: Cat smith and Laura Pidcock”

OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 17/07/2018 21:02

@Peston
Whitehall [Tory] source says: "we honoured Labour pairs - this was an honest mistake. And it wouldn't have made a difference to the result". Hmmm, Doesn't really make sense. @BrandonLewis knew he was paired earlier in the day. How can he suddenly have thought he was unpaired?

Otherwise known as Labour are propping us up so we care about them.

OlennasWimple · 17/07/2018 21:03

this was an honest mistake

I am usually the first to suggest cock up not conspiracy...but surely this is sheer incompetence

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 21:05

In a parallel universe somewhere last night Tim and Vince showed, Brandon remembered and Jared was a distant memory from the February By Election.

And the ERG would have been reigned in, leaving May to persue EEA.

How a series of seemingly minor things might have changed the course of history forever.

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RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 21:10

Do the Labour rebels tonight understand that the ERG believe in Social Darwinism?

Thus the venom directed at foreigners 'taking all the jobs', will merely be pointed at all the poor lazy people who are a burden on society and undeserving?

There are two ways to solve a housing crisis to improve things for the affluent oblivious middle classes.

They are build more houses and...

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thecatfromjapan · 17/07/2018 21:12

I know, Red. Sad

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 21:13

Yvette Cooper @ YvetteCooperMP
So Govt refuses to bring in proxy voting for new mums. Then promises they’ll do pairing instead? Then breaks promise to scrape thru vote? Disgraceful on all fronts. Disenfranchising MPs. Discriminating against women. Dishonest. Desperate.

Women shouldn't be MPs stupid...

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OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 17/07/2018 21:20

I sometimes wonder if this is some crazy fucked up version of Hold my Beer.

The Lib Dems and not having enough clue to even look at twitter/watch the news so letting their former leader and current leader not bother with a massive vote, Labour for their shit show with anti semitism. So the Tories need to try something.

On Labour:
@paulwaugh says Margaret Hodge called Jeremy Corbyn a 'fucking anti-semite' and racist to his face.
His response was apparently I'm sorry you feel like that

thecatfromjapan · 17/07/2018 21:20

In other news, it seems we can finally call Leave voters out as racist:

James O'Brien
@mrjamesob

17.07.2018
19:29

It seems that the money Vote Leave illegally distributed was spent on targeting voters specifically identified as susceptible to racist propaganda with racist propaganda. And the guilty parties are both still in the Cabinet & no 10

Horrible. ☹️. Our democracy has been undermined by a grotesque minority. They should have been kicked out of the Conservatives years ago.

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 21:20

Robert Peston @ peston
This is what Field, Mann, Hoey, Hopkins and Stringer averted tonight, according to well-placed Tory source. You’ll either love them or not!

Westministenders: Simple Solutions for Complex Tasks Never Work
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thecatfromjapan · 17/07/2018 21:25

Yes. I think the ones who backed down with that threat were stupid. So what if you lose your seat? It's vastly preferable to bringing in No Deal.

And, as you say, in another universe, May faced down the ERG and went off to negotiate for EEA ...