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Brexit

Westministenders: Simple Solutions for Complex Tasks Never Work

986 replies

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 10:50

Time for some honesty: Simple Solutions for Complex Task Never Work.

There is a quote which I forget, which relates to authoritarian leaders, that is along the lines of being afraid of the man who offers you an easy solution.

This is the most basic thing of popularism.

What should worry you most is that EVERY politician in the UK is currently offering you this. Even the Remainers.

No one is up to the job. No one is really admitting the complexity of the task.

A People's Vote won't solve that. Its a 'solution' that might not even be possible at this stage due to the time it takes to set one up - which is lost from virtually all conversation. And even then, how the question is phrased is so unbeleivably contensious with parliament so divided its impossible to see how you could get them to agree to the wording.

Its arrogant to assume that remainers would win: there is still no honesty in the debate and the lies persist. Without being honesty in politics, any referendum is a car crash waiting to happen. Its Cameron's mistake and others are in danger of making it again.

The only purpose it may serve, is to start reframing the debate but that will only happen if there is a conscious decision by all to be more honest about the current state of play.

Even the thought that the only way out for politicians is to 'hand it back to the electorate' as they are too crap to sort it their internal squabbles is a nonsense.

The only way you could hand it back to the public in the time frame would be to trigger a General Election, and there is certainly no will to do that from the Tory Party and the numbers are not there to trigger it otherwise. Not that a General Election looks likely to create anything but another hung parliament and thus no way forward.

In terms of May's leadership, its difficult to see what happens next. With Remainers as well as Leavers torpedoing The Turd Way, its dead in the water. May has to go back to the drawing board. But there the alternative will have to align further either with one or the other group: and the EU will NEVER agree to a deal which is closer to the Brexiteer / Davis position.

May either has to go hard, and then compromise later with the EU. Probably to the point which is remainier than The Turd Way anyway or she has to go softer from the off, which would send the Brexiteers into a rage and trigger a leadership contest for certain. If May goes softer, there might be more inclination from Labour to agree to it and save her neck. But even then Labour tribalism runs so deep, its hard to see that happening either. They might promise it, then pull out, causing even more issues later on.

Whether she could survive a leadership contest is still open to debate. There are the numbers to trigger a contest. But to oust her? Don't know. And then there's the question of the alternative. Who steps up and who then answers the question of what the plan is and then how do they get the EU to agree to it?

All the while the clock is ticking.

There is virtually no time for anything now. Everything is up shit creek. The only thing that is likely is No Deal. And thats what the ERG want. They are happy just to cause trouble and obstruct everything from here on in.

But it is entirely possible that faced with that, the EU would agree to an article 50 extension. Provided we asked for one. Who would be brave enough.

If we want a deal and we want Brexit to be successful we HAVE to have an extension.

Otherwise the possibility of remaining also comes back into play.

I don't see a way out in any direction, apart from the death grip of the ERG dragging us all kicking and screaming over the cliff to absoluete chaos.

The ONLY way forward, is a massive swallowing of pride and reigning in of ego to a cross party solution AND compromising with the EU. That seems like a cake hope right now.

Remember the equation that will dominate the next few weeks:

Number of Con votes in 2017 - Number of votes for UKIP in 2015 = How much each Tory MP is shitting themselves about their job.

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OlennasWimple · 17/07/2018 21:29

I'm glad Yvette Cooper is getting angry - I've been waiting for her to intervene

Ditto Margaret Hodge, and other Labour party stalwarts. Maybe them getting angry is the first step to them waking up and actually being an Opposition

Tanith · 17/07/2018 21:33

Ken Clarke "didn't understand the consequence of his actions"???

I think he most certainly did!

20nil · 17/07/2018 21:33

I’m not in the slightest bit surprised. This is the Tories we are are talking about. The Tories. Party first, every time. The remain cabinet ministers are the ones I wonder about, people like Hammond. WTF is he thinking? What does he know that we don’t?

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 21:33

Women need to do a lot of getting angry.

Guess who gets the worst of Social Darwinism?

Not upper and middle class white men.

Look whose in Cabinet? Who does May favour too?

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SusanWalker · 17/07/2018 21:36

Hammond knows that if the worse comes to the worst he has a shed load of money in the bank. He also slides out of the worst of the comeback as he has been very quiet and is on the whole considered a remainer.

Motheroffourdragons · 17/07/2018 21:38

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thecatfromjapan · 17/07/2018 21:38

I think journalists need to start asking MPs what their plans are, where they'll be, at end March/April next year. Put the on the spot a bit.

woman11017 · 17/07/2018 21:39

Women need to do a lot of getting angry

@joswinson
54,000 women lose their jobs each year in the UK due to pregnancy & maternity discrimination. Despite claims to want to fight "burning injustices", govt response to this problem has been shockingly poor, so perhaps it should be no surprise they treat MPs on mat leave like this.

And Chope or chooper or whatever he's called did it again.
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/christopher-chope-block-womens-conference-sexist-behavior-upskirting-ban-a8450851.html

What a shower of *s those male chauvinist tory **s are.

Way to go Margaret Hodge. Smile She is right about Corbyn too and his collusive silence on what Hoey et al have just done to us.

20nil · 17/07/2018 21:40

But he knows, as do Greening and others, that a no deal means the end of the Tories for a generation. He would not want to be complicit in that, though I guess he might see no option but to keep kicking the can down the road.

OMG: where is a decent opposition when we need it?

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 21:42

Not if the Tories declare a state of Brexit Emergency that runs into the next general election it doesn't...

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GhostofFrankGrimes · 17/07/2018 21:50

No deal does not mean the end of the Tories. There will be plenty of leavers content with no deal. They’ll blame the fallout on remainers/EU.

The problem is not the opposition it is that voter opinions are entrenched. See the brexit thread in chat for evidence of that.

SusanWalker · 17/07/2018 21:51

But then you're assuming that all Tories care about the Tory party. I expect that by some it is viewed purely as a vehicle to power, along with the extra jobs like newspaper columns, followed by a nice pension, rounds of after dinner speeches, a book deal and an honorary board position or two. Brexit destroying the Tory party won't matter if they have made a killing on the back of it.

mybrainhurtsalot · 17/07/2018 21:52

Chilling prospect, but scarily possible - how quickly everything is unravelling.

Mrsr8 · 17/07/2018 21:58

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mybrainhurtsalot · 17/07/2018 21:58

I often think the remainers in the cabinet are probably wary of resigning as at least they can try to moderate the brexit craziness while they stay in post. Not that they have been very effective so far Sad

Motheroffourdragons · 17/07/2018 22:01

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Tanith · 17/07/2018 22:02

Time to thank those 12 rebels again - they must be under tremendous pressure, and I’m sure the usual crazies are issuing their death threats...

smilethoyourheartisbreaking · 17/07/2018 22:03

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woman11017 · 17/07/2018 22:03

state of Brexit Emergency
We'd be able to gloat about having predicted this ages ago, it but the thread or site will have been closed down.

@carolecadwalla
This is gobsmacking. The Russian Embassy has just launched an all-out assault on the British press. If it's routine work, why did @Arron_banks lie about it? More precisely: why did he lie about it REPEATEDLY? For TWO YEARS?

@mfa_russia
Meetings between #Russian diplomats and #British businesses, what would otherwise be seen as routine work for a diplomatic mission, became a conspiracy under the pen of British journalists.
bit.ly/2LcTfKV #Russia #UK #London #Moscow

smilethoyourheartisbreaking · 17/07/2018 22:03

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Mrsr8 · 17/07/2018 22:06

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BigChocFrenzy · 17/07/2018 22:10

Seriously, has May / her whips broken a pairing agreement ? ! Shock

If true that is against all Parliamentary conventions and quite possibly against Parliamentary rules

I can't think of any precedent for this.

If a govt reneges on pairing, which is a fundamental part of how Parliament works, then that would be a hammer blow to the UK democartic process.

So we need hard facts asap
and I wouldn't accept any pathetic excuses from the Tories about misunderstandings

Whatever happens, I expect that the BBC etc will ignore it

SwedishEdith · 17/07/2018 22:16

But then you're assuming that all Tories care about the Tory party.

Tim Shipman's All Out War says Steve Baker got into politics just to get out of the EU and he nearly chose UKIP. Nothing about wanting to make life better for people.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/07/2018 22:17

Mrsr8 I think it almost impossible that either side would actually want, or cause, Brexit to be any earlier than 29 March.
So, I'd keep planning for that date
All these shenanigans and this cowardice & incompetence just mean that no deal has become more likely than before.

I've had it at 50:50 for some time and mostly gathered that I'm being too pessimistic because the govt aren't suicidal idiots Hmm
I actually think its about 70% now

thecatfromjapan · 17/07/2018 22:20

Yes. I saw the Carole Cadwallada tweet earlier. In normal times, that would be major. The Russian Foreign Office is attacking the UK press.

It's not even registering.

That's how far we have travelled in two years.

And we haven't had No Deal yet. So ...

I don't see the Conservative Party surviving. May hasn't realised it yet but they have been infiltrated by a group who have used it as cover, and have used her, and her weakness (Party loyalty to a Party that scarcely exists). Far Right forces have run this show, and they have undermined the political, legal and communication systems. That IS what has happened.

I don't think the group around Corbyn has realised that there will be no 'riding to the rescue' and picking up the pieces after the implosion of the Conservatives when No Deal hits. They just don't have the money or the infrastructure to fight the alliance that brought us Brexit. They're deluding themselves.

Bollocks are we going to get Singapore. Singapore has massive public investment and the government owned key business for many years. We may well get the straitened civil liberties 'enjoyed' by Singapore. And the money laundering. And the low business taxes.

I'm sorry. I feel absolutely bereft tonight.

I actually wonder if May realised what she was doing when she agreed to those amendments. I suspect she was in negotiations with her own advisors, without senior civil service back up.

Remember: a key plank of the big players in Leave was to undo the 'elite stranglehold' of the civil service and the legilsature. I do suspect that those negotiating the amendments would have sought to evade civil service 'brakes' and involvement.

I honestly don't see this as 'strengthening May's hand' in negotiations with the EU at all. It has absolutely, utterly weakened it - and diminshed the UK's reputation when it comes to deal-making.

Please, please somebody tell me I'm wrong about this.