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Brexit

Westministenders: Simple Solutions for Complex Tasks Never Work

986 replies

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 10:50

Time for some honesty: Simple Solutions for Complex Task Never Work.

There is a quote which I forget, which relates to authoritarian leaders, that is along the lines of being afraid of the man who offers you an easy solution.

This is the most basic thing of popularism.

What should worry you most is that EVERY politician in the UK is currently offering you this. Even the Remainers.

No one is up to the job. No one is really admitting the complexity of the task.

A People's Vote won't solve that. Its a 'solution' that might not even be possible at this stage due to the time it takes to set one up - which is lost from virtually all conversation. And even then, how the question is phrased is so unbeleivably contensious with parliament so divided its impossible to see how you could get them to agree to the wording.

Its arrogant to assume that remainers would win: there is still no honesty in the debate and the lies persist. Without being honesty in politics, any referendum is a car crash waiting to happen. Its Cameron's mistake and others are in danger of making it again.

The only purpose it may serve, is to start reframing the debate but that will only happen if there is a conscious decision by all to be more honest about the current state of play.

Even the thought that the only way out for politicians is to 'hand it back to the electorate' as they are too crap to sort it their internal squabbles is a nonsense.

The only way you could hand it back to the public in the time frame would be to trigger a General Election, and there is certainly no will to do that from the Tory Party and the numbers are not there to trigger it otherwise. Not that a General Election looks likely to create anything but another hung parliament and thus no way forward.

In terms of May's leadership, its difficult to see what happens next. With Remainers as well as Leavers torpedoing The Turd Way, its dead in the water. May has to go back to the drawing board. But there the alternative will have to align further either with one or the other group: and the EU will NEVER agree to a deal which is closer to the Brexiteer / Davis position.

May either has to go hard, and then compromise later with the EU. Probably to the point which is remainier than The Turd Way anyway or she has to go softer from the off, which would send the Brexiteers into a rage and trigger a leadership contest for certain. If May goes softer, there might be more inclination from Labour to agree to it and save her neck. But even then Labour tribalism runs so deep, its hard to see that happening either. They might promise it, then pull out, causing even more issues later on.

Whether she could survive a leadership contest is still open to debate. There are the numbers to trigger a contest. But to oust her? Don't know. And then there's the question of the alternative. Who steps up and who then answers the question of what the plan is and then how do they get the EU to agree to it?

All the while the clock is ticking.

There is virtually no time for anything now. Everything is up shit creek. The only thing that is likely is No Deal. And thats what the ERG want. They are happy just to cause trouble and obstruct everything from here on in.

But it is entirely possible that faced with that, the EU would agree to an article 50 extension. Provided we asked for one. Who would be brave enough.

If we want a deal and we want Brexit to be successful we HAVE to have an extension.

Otherwise the possibility of remaining also comes back into play.

I don't see a way out in any direction, apart from the death grip of the ERG dragging us all kicking and screaming over the cliff to absoluete chaos.

The ONLY way forward, is a massive swallowing of pride and reigning in of ego to a cross party solution AND compromising with the EU. That seems like a cake hope right now.

Remember the equation that will dominate the next few weeks:

Number of Con votes in 2017 - Number of votes for UKIP in 2015 = How much each Tory MP is shitting themselves about their job.

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thecatfromjapan · 18/07/2018 22:40

Swedish but they are A core Conservative vote, sadly. ☹️

SwedishEdith · 18/07/2018 22:48

thecat - I'm watching the replies now. Most saying he just needs to leak it, make the suggestion it needs to be done in line with OBR forecasts. (It's slightly tongue-in-cheek - "Make them pay for their prescription medication, about 30 minutes" Grin )

TheElementsSong · 18/07/2018 22:49

If older voters realised they were going to have to pay for it, Brexit would die in about three hours.

DH reckoned there should have been a simple government proposal: A form to declare how you voted, and if for Brexit, you would be billed for any expenses or losses to the Exchequer incurred; conversely, if for Remain, you would be excluded from the expected bonanza of Sunlit Unicorns which would be reserved for the first refusal of Leavers.

One would, obviously, expect 17 million confirmations of Brexit support and belief and putting your money instead of just empty slogans where your mouth is. Versus 16 million non-Unicorn-recipients.

RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 22:55

If older voters realised they were going to have to pay for it, Brexit would die in about three hours.

If the ERG get their way, they'll get the dementia tax anyway as they'll have to pay for social care.

Property ownership will only be for the super rich who own many properties and rent to the poor.

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thecatfromjapan · 18/07/2018 22:55

Toit well, there IS something to be said for information having the imprimatur of officialdom and thus legitimacy. I think the Referendum madness ('we don't need experts') is wearing off - despite the volubility of the fanatics and the trolls.

It does wear off. Eventually. Look at Crimea. They miss being in the C20 now. They have noticed they have no access to water. Many regret the populist madness and have moved a little on their earlier opinions.

That said, I think you're right. A lot will dismiss it. They're not there yet. They still believe the propaganda.

I guess we'd find out how the wind's blowing if they were published.

And those that would listen deserve the information.

Swwdish 😁

RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 22:55

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/3310822-Westministenders-A-Pickling-Summer?watched=1
New Thread.

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Icantreachthepretzels · 18/07/2018 22:59

The petition has gone up 3000 signatures in half an hour. If only it could keep such a rate up until it expired in January - by my calculations approximately 17.4 million people would have signed it by the end of November.
I'd love to see how the govt would respond to that!

RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 23:09

I have a feeling that the Jewish Chronicle might be on Margaret Hodge's side.

I think attempts to discipline her might not go down terribly well.

Not sure why I get this impression...

Westministenders: Simple Solutions for Complex Tasks Never Work
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RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 23:17

www.rte.ie/amp/979422/?__twitter_impression=true
1,000 new customs and veterinary inspectors to be hired

Taoiseach Leo Varadkar has said Ireland will have to hire about 1,000 new customs and veterinary inspectors by 2021 to prepare our ports and airports for Brexit.

Speaking after a Cabinet meeting at Derrynane in Co Kerry, he said that "with growing uncertainty" over whether British Prime Minister Theresa May will get a withdrawal agreement through Westminster, Ireland needs to "up our preparations when it comes to Brexit."

He said this includes preparing Irish ports and airports for a change in the rules of trade east-west between Britain and Ireland in January 2021.

"That involves preparing for and hiring veterinary inspectors to carry out sanitary checks on agricultural products and plant-based products coming in from Britain and also customs inspectors," he said.

Interesting. There is said like transition is a given. Like Johnson did.

Not a conditional 'if'. Not a cut off in March in the event of no deal.

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BigChocFrenzy · 18/07/2018 23:47

UK Govt 70 Notices to business & householders
70, so similar to # of EU notices to stakaeholders Hmm
Surely not another UK copy & paste job ?

Robert Peston:

Westministenders: Simple Solutions for Complex Tasks Never Work
mathanxiety · 19/07/2018 01:57

Huzzah for the comeuppance of venal Ian Paisley Jr., limited though it is.

I suspect this may be a way to hint to the DUP that the rug can in fact be pulled from under their feet.

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