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Brexit

Westministenders: Simple Solutions for Complex Tasks Never Work

986 replies

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 10:50

Time for some honesty: Simple Solutions for Complex Task Never Work.

There is a quote which I forget, which relates to authoritarian leaders, that is along the lines of being afraid of the man who offers you an easy solution.

This is the most basic thing of popularism.

What should worry you most is that EVERY politician in the UK is currently offering you this. Even the Remainers.

No one is up to the job. No one is really admitting the complexity of the task.

A People's Vote won't solve that. Its a 'solution' that might not even be possible at this stage due to the time it takes to set one up - which is lost from virtually all conversation. And even then, how the question is phrased is so unbeleivably contensious with parliament so divided its impossible to see how you could get them to agree to the wording.

Its arrogant to assume that remainers would win: there is still no honesty in the debate and the lies persist. Without being honesty in politics, any referendum is a car crash waiting to happen. Its Cameron's mistake and others are in danger of making it again.

The only purpose it may serve, is to start reframing the debate but that will only happen if there is a conscious decision by all to be more honest about the current state of play.

Even the thought that the only way out for politicians is to 'hand it back to the electorate' as they are too crap to sort it their internal squabbles is a nonsense.

The only way you could hand it back to the public in the time frame would be to trigger a General Election, and there is certainly no will to do that from the Tory Party and the numbers are not there to trigger it otherwise. Not that a General Election looks likely to create anything but another hung parliament and thus no way forward.

In terms of May's leadership, its difficult to see what happens next. With Remainers as well as Leavers torpedoing The Turd Way, its dead in the water. May has to go back to the drawing board. But there the alternative will have to align further either with one or the other group: and the EU will NEVER agree to a deal which is closer to the Brexiteer / Davis position.

May either has to go hard, and then compromise later with the EU. Probably to the point which is remainier than The Turd Way anyway or she has to go softer from the off, which would send the Brexiteers into a rage and trigger a leadership contest for certain. If May goes softer, there might be more inclination from Labour to agree to it and save her neck. But even then Labour tribalism runs so deep, its hard to see that happening either. They might promise it, then pull out, causing even more issues later on.

Whether she could survive a leadership contest is still open to debate. There are the numbers to trigger a contest. But to oust her? Don't know. And then there's the question of the alternative. Who steps up and who then answers the question of what the plan is and then how do they get the EU to agree to it?

All the while the clock is ticking.

There is virtually no time for anything now. Everything is up shit creek. The only thing that is likely is No Deal. And thats what the ERG want. They are happy just to cause trouble and obstruct everything from here on in.

But it is entirely possible that faced with that, the EU would agree to an article 50 extension. Provided we asked for one. Who would be brave enough.

If we want a deal and we want Brexit to be successful we HAVE to have an extension.

Otherwise the possibility of remaining also comes back into play.

I don't see a way out in any direction, apart from the death grip of the ERG dragging us all kicking and screaming over the cliff to absoluete chaos.

The ONLY way forward, is a massive swallowing of pride and reigning in of ego to a cross party solution AND compromising with the EU. That seems like a cake hope right now.

Remember the equation that will dominate the next few weeks:

Number of Con votes in 2017 - Number of votes for UKIP in 2015 = How much each Tory MP is shitting themselves about their job.

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BigChocFrenzy · 16/07/2018 12:45

Trump cosies up to a fascist leader who tortures & murders his domestic political opponents and commits mass murder of Muslims.
Who perpetrates the biggest fake news

Trump hates democratic leaders who uphold human rights laws, publish documents to inform the publc what they are doing e.g. on Brexit - and don't lend his business & family $ zillions.

Surprised ? < shrugs >

Mrsr8 · 16/07/2018 12:50

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DGRossetti · 16/07/2018 13:04

PM's spokesman on Chequers agreement: "Cabinet is behind it, businesses have come out to support it and now we need to get on with negotiating with the EU."

Talk is cheap.

frumpety · 16/07/2018 13:05

Place marking , another shiny Star for Red

prettybird · 16/07/2018 13:07

I listened to the UK CEO of Airbus. While she was positive about the £300 million the Government has promised why look a gift horse in the mouth? Wink, I felt she was very guarded diplomatic in her answers about the impact of Brexit on the company - and also pointed out that Airbus was an International consortium.

What she didn't do was come out explicitly in favour of the latest UK Government wishful thinking proposals. Confused

Talkstotrees · 16/07/2018 13:14

CakeBrew

DGRossetti · 16/07/2018 13:15

I listened to the UK CEO of Airbus. While she was positive about the £300 million the Government has promised

So how does that square with the US distaste for state subsidies ? I'm looking forward to both barrels from Boeing (who are quietly moving away from Europe anyway).

lonelyplanetmum · 16/07/2018 13:18

Thank you RTB and everyone. These threads keep me informed and sane.

www.fishayetrading.com/product/princess-fish-placemat/

lonelyplanetmum · 16/07/2018 13:23

P.S.

The place mat I posted is Stain resistant and laminated -it allows an easy no fuss clean up. 100% Vinyl.

woman11017 · 16/07/2018 13:25

Theresa May's new Brexit and foreign ministers stay away from EU talks as Cabinet turmoil rages

^Brexit Secretary not attending opening of talks while Foreign Secretary skips Foreign Affairs Council

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-brexit-eu-talks-firegin-ministers-cabinet-customs-bill-vote-conservatives-a8449226.html

@bbclaurak
Reminder - while Tories negotiate amongst themselves UK officials are in Brussels this week, trying actually to negotiate

@DanielFerrie
📣 The agenda for this week’s round of #Brexit negotiations @EU_Commission is available online: 1) Withdrawal Agreement, 2) Ireland/Northern Ireland, 3) future relationship - @MichelBarnier will meet @DominicRaab in Brussels on Thurs: …

WhatWouldScoobyDoo · 16/07/2018 13:34

Lonely planet Mum Grin

SusanWalker · 16/07/2018 13:43

Really enjoyed watching arch brexiteer Stella Braverman defend the white paper to remainer Justine Greening on daily politics today. It's like the rabbit hole we've gone down has suddenly changed into the looking glass.

IrenetheQuaint · 16/07/2018 13:49

Good summary, Red Flowers

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 13:56

Roland Smith @rolandmcs
^I'm withdrawing my support for Brexit. Did not sufficiently account for: the incompetence of UK politics; the madness of Brexiteers; the deep aversion to EEA; NI; Customs; and of course Trump.
Not switching to Remain but if we do now remain I'll shrug. /1^
I therefore don't think I have much value to add anymore, so I expect to reduce tweets on this subject. That is all. /2

David Allen Green @davidallengreen
A significant tip-over.

@rolandmcs has long been one of the more thoughtful and intellectually honest Leavers. No doubt he will get knee-jerk abuse for this, but he should should be commended for being open.

Others should follow.

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Hasenstein · 16/07/2018 13:58

Thanks for the new thread, Red. It really is the best source of solid information; whatever did I use to do with my time before 2016?

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 14:01

Chris Cook @xtophercook
An under-mooted question on the future path of Brexit whether Labour MPs will not only vote down a May-brokered deal in the autumn, but whether they’ll keep voting it down through the winter if it’s brought back to them, as the clock to March ticks down and markets freak out.
We could be heading into the biggest constitutional crisis of the modern era: govt unable to pass key bill, not enough time for election before the March 2019 deadline, govt with little incentive to ask for A50 extension (which releases pressure on Labour to vote for their deal)
I wouldn’t give too much credence to how people say they’d vote when speaking abstractly about that sort of situation.
FWIW, I think we’re into capital-U uncertainty about where we land. Number of brexiters who will fight now but swing back to support whatever the Govt gets and Remainers who’d always avoid no deal are big unknowns. Some MPs won’t realise they’re actually in those camps yet.

Thats the policy editor of Newsnight going all bets are off and no one - including politicians themselves - know what the fuck they are going to do when it comes to the crunch.

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Icantreachthepretzels · 16/07/2018 14:05

I don't want a second referendum - but I do want people to agitate for one in massive numbers.

I couldn't withstand a rerun of 2016. If 'no deal' was an option I think my anxiety would be so bad I would be unable to leave the house and I don;t like the fact that it would be TM setting the question. And I still think leave would win because if there is one thing I will never underestimate again it is the sheer stupidity of people. (I actually think remainers who would vote leave this time because the first result should have been honoured are by far the most stupid of all the stupid people caught up in this shitfest.)

But - if TM is going to hold firm and go against the ERG she has to know that people do not want a hard brexit. She has to see opposition to it (and that's not coming from labour). She has to know people are not happy with what has been done so far... hence agitating for a people's vote. Like all politicians she will have one eye on her legacy - and right now that isn't looking too good. Knowing that there is huge support for the people to have a say may well focus her mind a bit and make her decide she is more afraid of how history will see her than she is of the ERG.

I'm in two minds as to whether we will get one a) she's a control freak and she supports brexit - so no but b) it absolves her of the responsibility of the outcome - so maybe.

To get one they would have to indicate to the EU this was on the cards, negotiate a deal in good faith and then request that article 50 be stopped for the duration of passing the legislation, setting the question, organising everything. The up side of this is that I suppose they could pause article 50 on 29th March and then depending on the result (whenever the referendum was actually held) we would either stay or leave the next day. The downside is - this is way too many steps for the govt to get its head round, they won't dare ask on account of what the Mail and the Express would say and the EU could always say 'no' anyway.

Mostly I just want TM to do her job and say 'brexit is too hard and the cost for the people will be too high, I am cancelling it - sack me.'

Thanks for the new thread red

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 14:07

Hugo Rifkind @hugorifkind
I'm not convinced about a second referendum, and particularly Greening's referendum. Say you end up with 40% Remain, 30% May's deal, 30% no deal. Remain wins with 60% wanting Leave, which is a mess.
Ironically, hard Leavers wouldn't be able to complain about this, due to their utterly disingenuous presence that May's deal is basically Remain, anyway. So I'm not saying it wouldn't be FUNNY. But also, I think, bad.
Fair point to all those pointing out that the AV element is specifically designed to address this. But that's all the more reason why Brexiters won't go for it.

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RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 14:09

Steve Peers @StevePeers
Observation: "The Leave vote was for sovereignty, regardless of economic impact" is not compatible with "Remainers/the EU is/are responsible for the economic impact of Brexit". Pick a lane, ERG folks.

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DGRossetti · 16/07/2018 14:18

Remain wins with 60% wanting Leave, which is a mess.

See also: General elections.

DGRossetti · 16/07/2018 14:19

We could be heading into the biggest constitutional crisis of the modern era

Does WW2 cover "the modern era" ?

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 14:30

Laura Kuenssberg @bbclaurak
Brexiteers fully expect govt to accept all four of their amendments tonight

This is in relation to the Trade Bill I think. It would render The Turd Way dead.

No guarentee that Rebel Tories MPs will agree to this though.

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DarlingNikita · 16/07/2018 14:46

Yes, this is the story I'm aware of on this subject, Red: www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-jacob-rees-mogg-customs-victory-theresa-may-tax-a8449341.html

lonelyplanetmum · 16/07/2018 14:52

Brexiteers fully expect govt to accept all four of their amendments tonight

I thought the ERG amendments had no chance anyway as Labour refused support them?

I thought it was just Mogg posturing showing how powerful the insuRGEnts are? He said “we’ll have an idea of the numbers at 10pm on Monday evening”.

I thought the Guardian said:

•20 or 30 supporters and the ERG look weak.

•Over 48 – the number to trigger a confidence vote would be significant.

•Between 48 and 100 would be curtains for the Teaser May.

If the govt are not risking it then that means they think it's closer to 48 than 30?

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 15:36

Heather Stewart @GuardianHeather
Number 10 source insisting they're "still in discussions" with the ERG over those amendments: hmm...

Laura Kuenssberg @bbclaurak
hmmmmm indeed - not what someone in govt said about twenty mins ago, said they'd swallowed the lot

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