Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westministenders: Simple Solutions for Complex Tasks Never Work

986 replies

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 10:50

Time for some honesty: Simple Solutions for Complex Task Never Work.

There is a quote which I forget, which relates to authoritarian leaders, that is along the lines of being afraid of the man who offers you an easy solution.

This is the most basic thing of popularism.

What should worry you most is that EVERY politician in the UK is currently offering you this. Even the Remainers.

No one is up to the job. No one is really admitting the complexity of the task.

A People's Vote won't solve that. Its a 'solution' that might not even be possible at this stage due to the time it takes to set one up - which is lost from virtually all conversation. And even then, how the question is phrased is so unbeleivably contensious with parliament so divided its impossible to see how you could get them to agree to the wording.

Its arrogant to assume that remainers would win: there is still no honesty in the debate and the lies persist. Without being honesty in politics, any referendum is a car crash waiting to happen. Its Cameron's mistake and others are in danger of making it again.

The only purpose it may serve, is to start reframing the debate but that will only happen if there is a conscious decision by all to be more honest about the current state of play.

Even the thought that the only way out for politicians is to 'hand it back to the electorate' as they are too crap to sort it their internal squabbles is a nonsense.

The only way you could hand it back to the public in the time frame would be to trigger a General Election, and there is certainly no will to do that from the Tory Party and the numbers are not there to trigger it otherwise. Not that a General Election looks likely to create anything but another hung parliament and thus no way forward.

In terms of May's leadership, its difficult to see what happens next. With Remainers as well as Leavers torpedoing The Turd Way, its dead in the water. May has to go back to the drawing board. But there the alternative will have to align further either with one or the other group: and the EU will NEVER agree to a deal which is closer to the Brexiteer / Davis position.

May either has to go hard, and then compromise later with the EU. Probably to the point which is remainier than The Turd Way anyway or she has to go softer from the off, which would send the Brexiteers into a rage and trigger a leadership contest for certain. If May goes softer, there might be more inclination from Labour to agree to it and save her neck. But even then Labour tribalism runs so deep, its hard to see that happening either. They might promise it, then pull out, causing even more issues later on.

Whether she could survive a leadership contest is still open to debate. There are the numbers to trigger a contest. But to oust her? Don't know. And then there's the question of the alternative. Who steps up and who then answers the question of what the plan is and then how do they get the EU to agree to it?

All the while the clock is ticking.

There is virtually no time for anything now. Everything is up shit creek. The only thing that is likely is No Deal. And thats what the ERG want. They are happy just to cause trouble and obstruct everything from here on in.

But it is entirely possible that faced with that, the EU would agree to an article 50 extension. Provided we asked for one. Who would be brave enough.

If we want a deal and we want Brexit to be successful we HAVE to have an extension.

Otherwise the possibility of remaining also comes back into play.

I don't see a way out in any direction, apart from the death grip of the ERG dragging us all kicking and screaming over the cliff to absoluete chaos.

The ONLY way forward, is a massive swallowing of pride and reigning in of ego to a cross party solution AND compromising with the EU. That seems like a cake hope right now.

Remember the equation that will dominate the next few weeks:

Number of Con votes in 2017 - Number of votes for UKIP in 2015 = How much each Tory MP is shitting themselves about their job.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
Mrsr8 · 18/07/2018 19:51

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Mrsr8 · 18/07/2018 19:51

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CaptainBrickbeard · 18/07/2018 19:57

Yvette Cooper has expressed bafflement at May’s customs plan and it doesn’t sound like May understands it herself either.

RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 20:02

Gavan Reilly @gavreilly
Taoiseach warns hard Brexit grounds international flights from UK:

“If they want their planes to fly over our skies, they would need to take that into account. You can’t have your cake and eat it. You can’t take back your waters and then expect to take back other people’s sky.”

OP posts:
TheElementsSong · 18/07/2018 21:01

You can’t take back your waters and then expect to take back other people’s sky.

Don’t They Know Who We Are?

HesterThrale · 18/07/2018 21:09

So Boris and Davies initially signed up to the Chequers proposal then resigned 3 days later as it was unacceptable to them.
Then it was made more palatable by JRM's amendments (which were narrowly passed yesterday) but by then of course they'd already resigned. Result for TM.
I'm interested in the timeline. Couldn't those two have had a hunch that it was likely to be amended by the ERG? Couldn't they have surmised that the EU would reject it anyway?
I reckon they wanted to go anyway; they were totally fed up with it. Probably just waiting for the right moment to spin it as an honourable resignation.

ClashCityRocker · 18/07/2018 21:11

I do wonder of bojo is kicking himself for jumping the gun on the resignation....

Didn't he want a hard brexit?

RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 21:18

Alberto Nardelli @ albertonardelli
Curious line in Johnson's speech: "We have fully two and a half years to make the technical preparations..." - the UK doesn't have two and a half years if it doesn't accept NI backstop. (ht @StevePeers)

Steve Peers @ Stevepeers
Johnson assumes that there will definitely be a post-Brexit transition period. But this depends on the ratification of the withdrawal agreement, unless the EU and UK agree to such a period separately (which is hardly certain). He's being either ignorant or deceptive.

Sunder Katwala @ sundersays
"We have time in these negotiations", says Boris Johnson in his resignation speech. He later specifies that he believes there are two and a half years to prepare for the possibility of WTO terms Brexit.

Appears to mean that Boris Johnson, while arguing that December agreement was a mistake, remains committed to December agreement, securing a transition phase (& so the Northern Ireland backstop too). Boris same policy as May to Dec 2020. Differs after.

This "we still have time" argument (that there are two and a half years left) also entails being unable to threaten to withhold the £40 billion.

So Boris Johnson compains that making that deal burned our negotiating capital and yet remains committed to that deal.

In arguing "we have time in these negotiations" to change course, Boris Johnson is de facto declaring that "no deal is better than a bad deal" is dead.

His argument there are 24 months, not 8 months, is based on the premise of banking a Withdrawal Agreement & transition deal.

He says we have "two and a half years", so 30 months (29 and a bit not), not the 8 months to Brexit day.

Property Spotter @ propertyspot
Assuming he's not gone mad, is he proposing to sign the backstop and then betray the DUP?

Oooo other people have noticed the exact thing that jumped out at me too.

Everything else was meh whatever Boris in the speech, but that comment I thought betrayed more than he realised.

I do think he grasps what he was saying and was deceptive rather than ignorant. Johnson DID NOT want to resign. He was happy to accept it. He only quit because he was forced to by Davis. Johnson couldn't be the 'sell out' or be seen to be less of a leaver than Davis.

The speech was about show not intent. He knows the deal that needs to be done. Why hasn't he made a leadership challenge? Why hasn't anyone? It's almost like they have painted themselves in a corner with pride, and it's just about who to pin the blame on. It sounds like Johnson himself is almost hostage to the ERG just like May!

If that's right, it'll be interesting to see how it progresses. Will Johnson risk voting against a deal at the very last second when we are at the wire? My suspicion is he'll make a lot of noise then fold. Because it's about his ego and his leadership hopes and ambitions first.

It's interesting the 1922 committee have also backed down tonight too.

They are afraid of the loons in their own party and afraid of what happens if they don't bring kippers along with them because of the party

I'm minded to remember the quote from an anonymous Tory MP here who said they could have sold the chequers deal to their constituents but Davis and Johnson fucked that by making the paper look too soft.

If this is the case, then there may be fewer nutters than appearances and votes might lead you to believe.

I'm also remained that Dorries is camp Johnson and what she was caught saying on a WhatsApp group was rather less hard-line than what she says publicly.

Could be completely missed reading this, but the Tories don't give a shit about NI for all the professing they do. It's unimportant and irrelevant to leadership ambitions afterall.

Westministenders: Simple Solutions for Complex Tasks Never Work
OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 21:21

I don't think Johnson is in Camp Davis. Is he ERG? He was always more a wet leaver during the ref. He was close to Gove, Hanan etc politically through it.

OP posts:
20nil · 18/07/2018 21:25

Course the Tories don’t care about NI. Remember all those months ago when TM was about to agree to keep in NI in the CU but was slapped down by Arlene Foster? No idea and only pretend to care when they need the votes.

This is the unionist party of course which is enabling Scottish independence! It’s all empty rhetoric and they are English nationalists first and foremost.

BigChocFrenzy · 18/07/2018 21:30

Johnson is, has always been, always will be ... Camp Johnson

HesterThrale · 18/07/2018 21:42

Sarah Wollaston wants the Govt to be honest about the fallout from no-deal.

My point at Liaison Committee today was that Govt needs to publish a plain English account of the consequences for individuals & families of a no deal, walk-away Brexit, the contingency planning & the costs.
We take so many aspects of membership of the EU completely for granted. Today PM reiterated ‘No deal is better than a bad deal’. As the risk of this has greatly increased @theresa_may shd publish the evidence on how this would impact real lives, her contingency plans & costs.
I welcome technical notices for businesses too but it’s how a cliff-edge, no-deal Brexit would affect so many aspects of our lives that will be most shocking.

mobile.twitter.com/sarahwollaston/status/1019658538535346177

TheElementsSong · 18/07/2018 21:48

the consequences for individuals & families of a no deal, walk-away Brexit, the contingency planning & the costs.

Consequences = unicorns shitting rainbows will cure all ills and hunger with sovereignty pills and positivity meals.
Contingency planning = where we're going to stash all the piles of extra money, and keeping stocks of paper and toner cartridges for printing out all our dozens of international trade deals.
Costs = nothing but a bit of national unity in chanting positive slogans.

There - done it!

smilethoyourheartisbreaking · 18/07/2018 21:52

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

HesterThrale · 18/07/2018 22:02

Petition gaining fast.

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/223729

Decent people, hopeful of a better country, conned by a bunch of chancers, tricksters, charlatans and cowards.

mobile.twitter.com/gummerben/status/1019113804221812736

borntobequiet · 18/07/2018 22:11

That petition is racing along!

OlennasWimple · 18/07/2018 22:21

That petition is already over 100,000 (the point at which the government has to respond) and is increasing as you watch the page

RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 22:26

Charles Tannock @CharlesTannock
Extraordinary that the House of Commons will have less scrutiny and power over UK postBrexit so called 'indy trade policy' than what I enjoy as MEP where all EU trade negotiations are subject to Trade Committee democratic monitoring by scrutiny&oversight & final EP assent motion!

David Henig @DavidHenigUK
Parliament has more powers of scrutiny over EU trade policy now than it will have over UK trade policy in the future.

OP posts:
borntobequiet · 18/07/2018 22:31

It’s over 100000 so considered for a debate...

Icantreachthepretzels · 18/07/2018 22:33

I'm just watching the numbers on that petition go up! It's gone up almost 1000 since I clicked on it. 45000 since I signed it late this morning!

Some of the replies to that tweet are so depressing though! How can they still be claiming that they knew what they were voting for when we still don't know what we are getting? They knew what they wanted out of a leave vote (ho ho ho ... like they had any idea of all the way the EU interacts with our lives) but as there was no plan no they did not know what they were going to get ergo they did not know what they were voting for.

...and then there is the fact that even Farage used to talk about Norway...

thecatfromjapan · 18/07/2018 22:33

I think what everyone, always, always needs to remember is that this shitstorm was -always was and still is - all about the Conservative Party.

Internal squabbles, jockeying for power, seeing off UKIP, keeping in power ...

Yes, it was seized on and incendiaries by an international FarRight but it was started - and is kept going, actually, by the Conservatives.

Shameful, when you think that the nation - us - pays the cost.

Everything Johnson says needs to be taken in tat context. He's a parochial, selfish, lying bastardised. NO point in looking beyond base self-interest in his words.

And the Conservatives keep this disaster on the road because they still think in terms of Party. Shameful.

And, sadly, that is why a National Government won't get off the ground.

Anna Soubry has realised her Party is willing to destroy the UK and there aren't enough MPs on her benches who will put nation before craven, immediate self interest. I feel for her, I really do.

But who would vote in that National Government - and form it?

Those same, craven MPs. ☹️

And who would form it with them?

The Liberals - who were roundly screwed last time!

Labour - who watched the Liberals get screwed?

And why should they rescue the Tories from a disaster they are still driving forwards?

Forget Cable and Farron's no-show. Forget the 5 LeaveLabour MPs - there were benches of Conservative MPs who know this is a disaster. ☹️

And, frankly, if they weren't willing to vote against those amendments on Monday, there is no way on this earth they are going to vote themselves out of power now. And there aren't the numbers to do it without the Conservatives doing it.

That's why these terrible bills keep passing. The Conservatives + DUP are the majority.

Lastly, most people simply do not believe there is a crisis looming. So anyone who forms a National Governmdnt is going to fight a right-wing press claiming democracy has been hi-jacked.

I know. The irony.

And people will believe it. Especially if it works and the crisis is averted.

And, given the right wing press is powerful, and tight-wing, I think we'll see Labour, and moderate Individual Conservatives, carrying the can. NOT being hailed as saviours.

So, if I were Labour, I'd be very unwilling to do this. Even though a disaster is threatening.

I really am so angry. All over again. I don't think we're putting enough pressure on 'quiet' Leave-voting Conservative MPs.

Having said that, I think the petition is a great idea for building awareness, networks of resistance and pressure.

I prefer Greening's plan, though.

thecatfromjapan · 18/07/2018 22:36

By the way, Red, I think you're spot on about Johnson not having expected to have to resign. And that there is little real support for Hard Brexit (I'd say for Brexit full stop, to be honest).

All of which just makes me angrier by how craven and self-interested so many Conservatives seem to be.

I think it makes me realise how strong those rebel Conservatives are, as people.

SwedishEdith · 18/07/2018 22:38

David Whitley
‏**@mrdavidwhitley**

You know who’s been very quiet recently? Philip Hammond.

Now if I was him, I’d be preparing a few little goodies like the freezing of the state pension and significantly ramped up inheritance tax to “pay for Brexit"

David Whitley
‏**@mrdavidwhitley**

If older voters realised they were going to have to pay for it, Brexit would die in about three hours.

thecatfromjapan · 18/07/2018 22:39

I hate Boris Johnson so much I've had to avoid his speech.

I'd LOVE to know where he's going to be March 29. Somewhere conveniently far from London, I'll bet.

Toit99 · 18/07/2018 22:40

With regards to the govt publishing No Deal prep notices for households and businesses, (assuming they are actually honest), how will they get Brexiters to take them seriously and not dismiss them as Project Fear?

My very close relative (voted Leave), who literally worries about everything is absolutely unconcerned about No Deal Brexit. The Daily Mail has done such a number on her. How on earth do you get through to them?

Swipe left for the next trending thread