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Brexit

Westministenders: Simple Solutions for Complex Tasks Never Work

986 replies

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 10:50

Time for some honesty: Simple Solutions for Complex Task Never Work.

There is a quote which I forget, which relates to authoritarian leaders, that is along the lines of being afraid of the man who offers you an easy solution.

This is the most basic thing of popularism.

What should worry you most is that EVERY politician in the UK is currently offering you this. Even the Remainers.

No one is up to the job. No one is really admitting the complexity of the task.

A People's Vote won't solve that. Its a 'solution' that might not even be possible at this stage due to the time it takes to set one up - which is lost from virtually all conversation. And even then, how the question is phrased is so unbeleivably contensious with parliament so divided its impossible to see how you could get them to agree to the wording.

Its arrogant to assume that remainers would win: there is still no honesty in the debate and the lies persist. Without being honesty in politics, any referendum is a car crash waiting to happen. Its Cameron's mistake and others are in danger of making it again.

The only purpose it may serve, is to start reframing the debate but that will only happen if there is a conscious decision by all to be more honest about the current state of play.

Even the thought that the only way out for politicians is to 'hand it back to the electorate' as they are too crap to sort it their internal squabbles is a nonsense.

The only way you could hand it back to the public in the time frame would be to trigger a General Election, and there is certainly no will to do that from the Tory Party and the numbers are not there to trigger it otherwise. Not that a General Election looks likely to create anything but another hung parliament and thus no way forward.

In terms of May's leadership, its difficult to see what happens next. With Remainers as well as Leavers torpedoing The Turd Way, its dead in the water. May has to go back to the drawing board. But there the alternative will have to align further either with one or the other group: and the EU will NEVER agree to a deal which is closer to the Brexiteer / Davis position.

May either has to go hard, and then compromise later with the EU. Probably to the point which is remainier than The Turd Way anyway or she has to go softer from the off, which would send the Brexiteers into a rage and trigger a leadership contest for certain. If May goes softer, there might be more inclination from Labour to agree to it and save her neck. But even then Labour tribalism runs so deep, its hard to see that happening either. They might promise it, then pull out, causing even more issues later on.

Whether she could survive a leadership contest is still open to debate. There are the numbers to trigger a contest. But to oust her? Don't know. And then there's the question of the alternative. Who steps up and who then answers the question of what the plan is and then how do they get the EU to agree to it?

All the while the clock is ticking.

There is virtually no time for anything now. Everything is up shit creek. The only thing that is likely is No Deal. And thats what the ERG want. They are happy just to cause trouble and obstruct everything from here on in.

But it is entirely possible that faced with that, the EU would agree to an article 50 extension. Provided we asked for one. Who would be brave enough.

If we want a deal and we want Brexit to be successful we HAVE to have an extension.

Otherwise the possibility of remaining also comes back into play.

I don't see a way out in any direction, apart from the death grip of the ERG dragging us all kicking and screaming over the cliff to absoluete chaos.

The ONLY way forward, is a massive swallowing of pride and reigning in of ego to a cross party solution AND compromising with the EU. That seems like a cake hope right now.

Remember the equation that will dominate the next few weeks:

Number of Con votes in 2017 - Number of votes for UKIP in 2015 = How much each Tory MP is shitting themselves about their job.

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Yaralie · 17/07/2018 19:25

It is time for these brexit fantasists to wake up to reality.

keyboardkate · 17/07/2018 19:30

As my dear old granny used to say, There is no point stockpiling (prepping now) if you don't have a gun.

keyboardkate · 17/07/2018 19:32

@Ghost,

they don't need it now, there will not be a leadership challenge anymore AFAIK anyway. Good Lord what two faced idiots we have running the country. Well kind of.

Was always Party before Country anyway with the Tories. I hope they eat themselves up before long, and then da da..... Jezza takes over. Oh my days we have lots to look forward to. Very depressing really.

Mrsr8 · 17/07/2018 19:35

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Motheroffourdragons · 17/07/2018 19:36

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 17/07/2018 19:36

yaralie I get the impression that she was just explaining what was happening as she wasn't there, given the complete fuck up with Farron and Cable yesterday.

SwedishEdith · 17/07/2018 19:36

Desmond Swayne on C4News just now waffling on that even the ERG can't decide what kind of Brexit they want. But, hey, "the people" all only voted for one type of extreme Brexit.

Mrsr8 · 17/07/2018 19:37

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Motheroffourdragons · 17/07/2018 19:39

This reply has been withdrawn

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CaptainBrickbeard · 17/07/2018 19:42

What do the Labour Leavers want? Why would they prop up the hard right no deal Brexit? Why prop up this government? I don’t understand. And why has Corbyn said nothing this week about the chaos and turmoil? Does he want no deal? Are there Labour Leavers who believe that the Tories dragging us into disaster will destroy the Conservative party and that Labour will somehow pick up the pieces? Is that their strategy?

PineappleSunrise · 17/07/2018 19:43

I'm sorry, Mrsr8. There is a hard conversation coming up in my house, too. Flowers

Yaralie · 17/07/2018 19:44

Corbyn is a huge disappointment.

smilethoyourheartisbreaking · 17/07/2018 19:48

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PineappleSunrise · 17/07/2018 19:51

I see Nigel Farage is tweeting (incredibly insulting, misogynist) fake news again and pissing off the Canadians:

vancouversun.com/news/local-news/vancouver-reporter-calls-out-immigration-photo-on-social-media-as-fake-news

TheElementsSong · 17/07/2018 19:52

Flowers Mrsr8 what did he say?

It’s not so bad in our house, we’re both in agreement that Brexit is an utter shitshow. But DH is definitely less emotional about it, and more towards the “it’s not as bad as it could be yet, therefore let’s not take any action or even think about it until we’re hunting pigeons for food”

Mrsr8 · 17/07/2018 19:55

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woman11017 · 17/07/2018 19:58

Mrs8 Flowers Sad Angry and Flowers to all of us with similar situation.

mybrainhurtsalot · 17/07/2018 19:58

Commonsvote app shows Margot James was not voting yesterday, but Brandon Lewis did vote today, so looks like the pairing arrangement was dropped or they swapped the MP, perhaps?

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 20:11

Margo James paired with Jo swinson. (Jo tweeted earlier)

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RedToothBrush · 17/07/2018 20:11

Jo was paired with Brandon last night

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mybrainhurtsalot · 17/07/2018 20:14

She said it was Margot James yesterday and Brandon Lewis today. Both Brandon and Margot voted with the government today.

Plonkysaurus · 17/07/2018 20:16

The headlines in the guardian (on the app, at least) are breathtaking.

Mark Carney: No-deal Brexit would have big consequences
Barack Obama: Former US president criticises 'strongman politics' in coded attack on Trump
Labour refusal to drop new antisemitism code angers Jewish leaders
Andre Griffith was made minister despite 'touching' allegations
Number of women in top boardroom positions falls
Israel/Dozens of fleeing Syrians turned away from the border
Vote Leave broke electoral law and British democracy is shaken
The ministers behind Vote Leave should be sacked

Right. When can I march against this shit show? Being human in 2018 has to mean more than this.

OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 17/07/2018 20:20

And the penny has dropped for Jo Swinson

twitter.com/joswinson/status/1019298949344219137?s=19

whymewhynow · 17/07/2018 20:20

Long-time lurker - thanks for these threads and for all the wonderful insight that they give to non-contributors like me. I do feel let down every step of the way but is this the first reading of the bill? Does it now go to the Lords who can resurrect the amendments and send it back to the Commons for further votes? Am I right in thinking all is not lost yet?

Plonkysaurus · 17/07/2018 20:24

From The ministers behind Vote Leave should be sacked

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/17/ministers-vote-leave-sacked-electoral-commission-brexit-undemocratic

In spite of the shocking weakness of our constitution that Brexit has exposed, we need the prime minister to demonstrate her stalwart defence of the rule of law by sacking cabinet ministers who were on the Vote Leave committee, namely Fox, Gove, Grayling and Raab. She should also recall that we are signatories to the Venice commission which states that campaign overspending is adequate grounds for annulling an election result. The foundations of our democratic systems are being undermined and it is May’s duty to defend them.

How important is the Venice Commission? Is this a development worth noting?