Deeper understanding of why Israel was created

[NameChangedUnderstandingGained]

I have recently visited Poland. Did a lot of reading. Visited a lot of historic sites and museums.

Oh My Gosh - I now REALLY understand why the British Mandate in Palestine created Israel. Even after the war ended Jews were still ostracised, blamed, killed, turned out of lands, unwelcome in many, many nations in Europe. The number of Jews were decimated, many survivors had to use assumed fake identification to survive, some fled to America, to Australia and Europe still wasn't safe or friendly for them hence Israel. One little bit of land where Jewish people originated, where the religion was first founded thousands of years before. A 2 state solution would have been good if both agreed and both wanted to live in peace and prosper. Israel never felt safe so built up a massive defence, built up a country and industry and wanted to prosper.

There is much harm that has been done to many peoples in history. However, the holocaust was unique. I have visited places where Jews no longer exist, they have all gone, millions died, the liquidation of Jews throughout lands, nothing Israel has done in a war is the same as this. The gas chambers, the extermination camps, the work until to drop then we kill you camps. It really is on another scale.

I am now totally pro keeping a land for Jewish people. I don't agree with settler violence but I do agree and understand why Israel needs to defend itself from terrorists who wish to wipe Jewish people from the earth just like the Nazi did.

According to a Gazan journalist I follow (who IS actually based in Gaza), 90% of Gazans want to leave because they don't see any chance of a stable life there in the near future.

He has already been tortured by Hamas for speaking out against them.

What are the thoughts of those on here, who sit in their comfy homes in the West insisting Gazans should not leave, about that?

How can you be amazed by the idea that this is not colonisation? Its hardly a new suggestion. Obviously its not colonisation, its de-colonisation. The British left!

Are Arabs colonizers in Israel / Palestine?

Yes. There is something about the anti Israeli/ pro Palestine activism that is beyond rationalism.

I agree the Palestinians have suffered terribly and Netanyahu is wicked in his disregard of their humanity and rights …. But no other cause has been adopted with such fervour.
The protesters are completely uninterested in the plight of Afghan women or Iranian dissenters.
I understand that as individuals we can’t adopt every cause - but it’s interesting that all the right thinking fashionable people have decided that Palestine is their cause ( rather than the Afghan women or the Iranian dissenters or the Christians who are oppressed and persecuted in Pakistan or Nigeria etc )

What do you mean by Arabs? People that speak Arabic. People from Saudi Arabia. Muslims. Or do you mean Palestinians who have deep ancestral roots in the region, meaning their DNA directly links them to the people who lived there thousands of years ago.

Whichever. I agree with your final characterization of Palestinians. But by that measure, neither Palestinians or Jews in the area are colonisers are they?
Both are indigenous to the land. Palestinians no doubt mixed up a bit with colonizing Arabs and other Arabic speaking peoples in the area, and Jewish people a bit mixed up with areas they spread to during the many periods of persecution they've suffered.
I'm sure you're not denying the millenia old links to the land of the Jewish people are you? I wouldnt deny the links of Palestinians.

That is absolute rubbish and the same whataboutism that Israel supporters have tried using so many times. The difference is I'm not being forced to pay for those other atrocities whereas my tax money is actively funding the repression of Palestinians against my will. Our Western governments are not only allowing the genocide to happen, they are active participants and hence are tainting me by association. They use veto powers to block UN resolutions frustrating other countries that want try to help. As our governments support the genocide against our will it is only public activism with movements like BDS, that there is any hope of pressure being brought to bear on Israel. This is not something new either. Our governments have been actively supporting this oppression for decades.

The problem is I don't agree with the original idea where Jews from Europe came to the land and justified what was settler colonisation with the argument that thousands of years ago our ancestors lived here. Yes, there were Jews living all over the Middle East with Christians and Muslims and have been for thousands of years so they have had a constant presence but that again doesn't justify dispossessing the Palestinians. The situation is very different now. Israel has been established as a country for decades and there are Israelis who identify as solely Israeli. Anyone calling for the complete erasure of Israel would be supporting genocide. There needs to be a complete change in the mindset of both the Israelis and the Palestinians that the land belongs to both and needs to be fairly shared. There is a lot of bad blood between the two populations but I, personally, believe the majority of people in Palestine are tired of the situation and would support any mechanism which would afford them the rights they deserve. I said the majority but not all. I think it would be harder to convince the Israelis though as it would mean them making the bigger sacrifice which they do not seem to have any intention of doing.

Do you think legal land purchases shouldn't have been allowed?

Depends. Yemeni Jews bought the land for Givet Shaul from the residents of Deir Yassin who sold it willingly and then they lived as good neighbours for decades. That was fine. There are numerous documented examples where Palestinians have been legally, financially, or physically forced to give up or "sell" their land through state sanctioned mechanisms, legal pressure, and coercive environments. That might be legal under Israeli law but I don't think that should be allowed.

@dairydebris ,

Pre the formation of Israel, there were about 1.2 mio Palestinian Arabs and about half that many Jews. It was a sparsely populated area.

They had as much right to move into the area as anyone else. I also think that totally ignoring the Shoah is to whitewash an important part of the reason out of it, as if it hardly mattered!

As to the solution, in one way I agree with you. They need to share the land, but they need to do so to make sure the Jews are safe in perpetuity. And I think that means a two state solution.

I understand what I think are your rather utopian reasons for advocating a one state solution but until you can answer the following two questions to my (and every other Jew’s) satisfaction, I don’t think it is realistic or will ever happen:

What is to keep it Jewish or even becoming Muslim?

If it does stop being Jewish, what is to guarantee the safety of the Jewish population?

I’m not an Israel supporter. But the constant pro Palestine marches have been very disturbing. The Iranian man who held up a placard denouncing Hamas at one of the marches had to be protected by the police and removed for his own safety. I think a lot of the pro Palestinian activism is funded by Iran.

Why do the pro Palestinian marches object to placards condemning Hamas ?
Why is it that the small group protesting about Iran’s human rights abuses outside the National Gallery London get either ignored or heckled by pro Palestinian activists. ?

As for you claim that this cause is the only instance where our tax payer money is being used in ways people object to - well that is clearly a ridiculous claim .

@Squeezingwildoranges and @dairydebris ,

Apologies, my last post should have been to @Squeezingwildoranges

You could argue that if there was barren land they had as much right to it as anyone but that's not what happened. They stole actual homes, not just barren land.

I understand the desire for a safe place for the Jews after the Shoah but not at the expense of a population that had nothing to do with it. Perhaps a chunk of Germany should have been carved off for that.

To be clear, my position is rooted in a fundamental opposition to ethnocracies and theocracies of any kind, whether Jewish, Christian, or Muslim. I believe a just system cannot give preferential treatment to one specific ethnic or religious group over all others. It is divisive and a major source of racism. King Charles recently declared he is defender of the faiths, not just the faith, and people went nuts.

If it had to be theocracy I suppose that could be established constitutionally with the agreement of the Palestinians as a condition for peace. Personally, I don't think it should be either.

A strong police force and army comprised of both Palestinians and Israelis. You're talking as if the Jews are the only victims here. They absolutely were the victims of what could be argued is the greatest crime against humanity but the Palestinians have been victimised ever since. Who is going to guarantee their safety.

A lot of the posts on this thread demonstrate exactly it why it can't be a 1SS.

Why do you think they want to leave?

@Squeezingwildoranges ,

‘You could argue that if there was barren land they had as much right to it as anyone but that's not what happened. They stole actual homes, not just barren land.’

Yes, and it was unjust, but far fewer than most think and far fewer than those who now claim Palestinian heritage.

‘I understand the desire for a safe place for the Jews after the Shoah but not at the expense of a population that had nothing to do with it. Perhaps a chunk of Germany should have been carved off for that.’

In a way, that would have been the ideal solution, but we can’t go back to 1945, and no one thought like that back then.

‘To be clear, my position is rooted in a fundamental opposition to ethnocracies and theocracies of any kind, whether Jewish, Christian, or Muslim. I believe a just system cannot give preferential treatment to one specific ethnic or religious group over all others. It is divisive and a major source of racism. King Charles recently declared he is defender of the faiths, not just the faith, and people went nuts.’

To some extent, on a purely theoretical basis, I agree with you. However, the world is at it is, not how we would like it to be. When antisemitism disappears, the need for a Jewish state will disappear (and no, it doesn’t work in reverse. There was no shortage of antisemitism pre Israel.

Do you care so much about the minorities in the much larger and more populous Islamic states?! Maybe, once they become secular and tolerant, it will be Israel’s turn.

(And I shouldn’t have to, but, just to once again state that the current government of Israel is behaving despicably and I am in favour of a just two state solution, based on the 1967 borders).

@OpenScroller i don’t think anyone is saying they must leave, but that they should have the right to remain in peace and safety with an adequate standard of living. I have Gazan friends who are desperate to leave unsurprisingly - they have been displaced more times than they can count and are still living in abject poverty under canvas, despite being educated professionals who have actually been relatively “lucky” in that they can find some work. They want a future for themselves, and particularly their kids.

They could have a good life elsewhere - they speak multiple languages, have studied abroad before and have high-level professional qualifications. But they know if they do manage to leave (which is currently incredibly difficult and near impossible for the whole family to go together) their wider family will be even more vulnerable. And for many leaving would just mean exchanging one refugee camp for another even if it were possible.

I want people like my friends to have a choice - to be able to live in safety somewhere where they and their kids can have a bright future, or they can take up opportunities abroad if they wish. At the moment they have neither option.

You seem to be conveniently ignoring the fact that more than half the population of Israel is Mzrachi. It wasnt just the shoah in Europe it was the persecution and expulsion of Jews across the Middle East, who also lost their homes, assets and livelihoods, even if they escaped with their lives. You call it settle colonialism is nonsense and how giving a chunk of Germany to the Jews would have made sense I have no idea. The Jews have an unbreakable tie to Israel.

Do you know how much of your taxes go towards 'reppressing' the,Palestinians, I wonder? And how much goes in aid to them? Do you know how much of your taxes go towards other activities that you object to, or is it just this cause that interests you?

Most likely because their leaders decided to start a war with their much stronger neighbours deliberately, knowing Gaza would be destroyed, to use them as human sacrifices to demonise the Jews.

They must surely be aware of this - they were aware of Oct 7th because they were out on the streets cheering for it. Knew there were hundreds of hostages in Gaza because some of them were kept in their homes. Knew there were no bomb shelters or civilian defence of any kind. Knew where Hamas bases and munitions were, and that rockets were being fired from tents.

The penny must have dropped at some point!

Who on earth would want to stay in that situation in the knowledge that Hamas is just going to rebuild themselves with thousands of willing recruits and try to repeat the whole thing again in a few years?

The Mizrahi were driven out of Arab countries from 1948 onwards. After the formation of Israel. The expulsion was encouraged by Mossad planting bombs in Jewish neighbourhoods to encourage the violence. If the tie to the land is so strong, why did they start to Europeanise the land by planting European style forests and banning the indigenous black goats.

I don't care how much of it goes to repressing the Palestinians. 1p would be too much. It is not just the money. It is the total hypocrisy. I just an interview with Huckaby saying the Israel has no intention of forcefully evicting the Palestinians from Gaza but if they choose to go, they should be allowed. This is not the first time in history that voluntary emigration has been encouraged as a policy.

If they do want to leave it is because they are tired of their kids being murdered on a daily basis, tired of the starvation, tired of medicines being seized, tired of the entire population of one of the most densely populated areas on earth being corralled into a third of the area and forced to live in tents but mostly, they're tired of the fact that the world is sitting back and not only allowing it to happen but actively supporting an apartheid, terrorist, regime commit formally recognised crimes against humanity.