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Deeper understanding of why Israel was created

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NameChangedUnderstandingGained · 26/10/2025 16:40

I have recently visited Poland. Did a lot of reading. Visited a lot of historic sites and museums.

Oh My Gosh - I now REALLY understand why the British Mandate in Palestine created Israel. Even after the war ended Jews were still ostracised, blamed, killed, turned out of lands, unwelcome in many, many nations in Europe. The number of Jews were decimated, many survivors had to use assumed fake identification to survive, some fled to America, to Australia and Europe still wasn't safe or friendly for them hence Israel. One little bit of land where Jewish people originated, where the religion was first founded thousands of years before. A 2 state solution would have been good if both agreed and both wanted to live in peace and prosper. Israel never felt safe so built up a massive defence, built up a country and industry and wanted to prosper.

There is much harm that has been done to many peoples in history. However, the holocaust was unique. I have visited places where Jews no longer exist, they have all gone, millions died, the liquidation of Jews throughout lands, nothing Israel has done in a war is the same as this. The gas chambers, the extermination camps, the work until to drop then we kill you camps. It really is on another scale.

I am now totally pro keeping a land for Jewish people. I don't agree with settler violence but I do agree and understand why Israel needs to defend itself from terrorists who wish to wipe Jewish people from the earth just like the Nazi did.

OP posts:
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Squeezingwildoranges · 01/09/2026 11:11

BananaPeels · 01/09/2026 10:57

No I am talking about the children of naturalised citizens who are by definition native, born and bred citizens of the UAE if they are born in the UAE after their parents are naturalised . The question was posed what other country has different rules for different types of born and bred citizens and I have given an example. The uk absolutely does not distinguish between children born to naturalised citizens and children born to citizens who have been on the Uk for generations.

No, this whole discussion is about rights based on religion, not naturalization. What you are talking about in the UAE is the possession of the family book. This is only for Emiratis who are native born, tribal Emiratis whose lineage in the region legally dates back to 1925 or earlier. It has nothing to do with religion unlike Israel.

NameChangedUnderstandingGained · 01/09/2026 11:17

As tends to be the way on the threads in CITME the original topic of Why Israel was orginally was created in the Jewish homeland has been overtaken by things discussed on other topics too and a general Israel is shit narrative that pervades the pores of most of the threads within CITME.

Israel has made mistakes in the conflict with Hamas, which I assume/hope will be investigated in time as with all conflicts, errors made or potential war crimes will be looked into. I don't think it is worth elaborating on the obsession with saying Israel bad that some have, I don't think they'd understand or see it.

OP posts:
Squeezingwildoranges · 01/09/2026 11:20

NameChangedUnderstandingGained · 01/09/2026 11:17

As tends to be the way on the threads in CITME the original topic of Why Israel was orginally was created in the Jewish homeland has been overtaken by things discussed on other topics too and a general Israel is shit narrative that pervades the pores of most of the threads within CITME.

Israel has made mistakes in the conflict with Hamas, which I assume/hope will be investigated in time as with all conflicts, errors made or potential war crimes will be looked into. I don't think it is worth elaborating on the obsession with saying Israel bad that some have, I don't think they'd understand or see it.

Edited

Mistakes and errors?? Jesus!

lifeinthemidlands · 01/09/2026 11:21

I struggle to think of any democracies where the situation is similar - sure there are inequities with marginalised populations, but can't particularly think of anywhere where particular segments of the population have where they live and can buy property restricted (i.e. through the legally-sanctioned "admission committees"). Or where they have a separate, inferior, lower-funded stream of education which while not enforced through law has few alternative options in reality. Israel has been careful not to have overtly "racist" laws, but still manages to have many laws that disadvantage Palestinian Israeli citizens.

Newbutoldfather · 01/09/2026 11:36

@NameChangedUnderstandingGained ,

I do think that Israel is currently in a racist expansionist phase. I don’t think anyone should be talking about mistakes when there has been a clear agenda for at least some time of expanding into Gaza, the West Bank and maybe even Lebanon (various Israeli politicians have discussed settling the ‘buffer zone’).

Expansionism hasn’t really been seen as acceptable since WW2.

As I said in an earlier post, there is a complex relationship between the diaspora and Judaism, both through culture and religion. Most Jews have some relatives, even distant ones, in Israel. For those who are religious, it is also a place-centred religion. ‘Next Year in Jerusalem’ is a traditional toast over Pesach.

After 7/10 there was a bit of a schism in Jewish thought regarding the ‘never again’ which is traditionally spoken about the Shoah. More religion right wing Jews took this as applying only to Jews and thought it justified a very aggressive response. Whilst liberal Jews (like me) also thought that Hamas needed to be eliminated, we also think that ‘never again’ means not ‘othering’ any group, something Israel seems currently to be doing. Calling Palestinians non-human animals is no part of European Jewish tradition, which is tolerant and welcoming to all human beings.

I do think that Israel has broken its pact with the diaspora to represent them in a civilised way and we should aggressively call out her current actions and the current government as ‘bad’. I will never question Israel’s right to exist but I do think that her actions are reprehensible at the moment and she should be sanctioned until wiser heads prevail. Ben G’vir, Smotrich and Israel Katz should be nowhere near any government positions in a so-called liberal democracy.

There is no question that antisemitism is an increasing problem or that Israel’s actions haven’t fed into it.

Having said that, there are a lot of antisemites who use Israel as an excuse for their Jew hating too.

We can go round and round in circles arguing whether Israel is Apartheid (I can see both sides of the argument) but until the U.S pressure Israel into proper negotiations, the situation will only get worse.

JadeHare · 01/09/2026 11:58

This was in Haaretz today:

“The debate over one state, two states or a federation is more theoretical than ever. Any agreed-upon solution requires first acknowledging the problem and agreeing on what it is. Too many Jews in Israel have been conditioned to believe that the problem is the very presence in this land of a Palestinian people with roots, historical and economic continuity, cultural capital and material assets, a rich agricultural heritage and a profound love of homeland.”
“Erasure" is the nightmare solution being written into reality every day. Knesset laws, politicians' declarations, military orders, school textbooks and the holy real estate battalions operating in Gaza, the West Bank and the Negev all work, together and separately, to advance this "solution" diligently and without fear of international condemnation.”
“Israeli policy is directed toward making life unbearable for Palestinians wherever they live, so that their emigration can be described as an act of free will. Within Israel itself, the authorities give Arab crime organizations free rein to arm themselves and kill Palestinian citizens in their homes. In the West Bank, those same Israeli authorities give "God's battalions" free rein to arm themselves, kill and expel, while the official army continues its raids day and night. In devastated and thirsty Gaza, the government and the army cultivate armed militias of criminal collaborators, while Israeli pilots continue to launch missiles of revenge and retribution that claim the lives of still more children. All these testosterone-fueled displays are interconnected.”
“At the same time, Israel is destroying or severely restricting Palestinians' ability to earn a living. In Gaza, that mission has been completed. A "living dead" population of aid recipients, two million people carrying the weight of some 74,000 fresh graves, families and memories, talents and professions, and evaporated savings, is crammed into roughly 150 square kilometers of scorched earth. Creativity, resourcefulness and mutual aid are dwarfed by the scale of the destruction and by Israel's prohibition on rebuilding and recovery.”
“In the West Bank, the Finance Ministry's financial noose is tightening around the necks of approximately three million people and the Palestinian Authority. The systematic theft of revenues is compounded by the army's campaigns of destruction in cities and refugee camps, as well as by the other methods used to prevent Palestinians from cultivating and developing their land: checkpoints, bureaucratic prohibitions, fences and Israeli-Jewish shepherds.”
“Within Israel itself, the "Judaization of the Galilee and Negev" was and remains code for stealing land and resources from Palestinian citizens of Israel. Discrimination against them in allocations, subsidies and employment, along with building prohibitions and demolitions, has always featured prominently in official policy within the Green Line.
Let me reiterate: The very existence of the Palestinian people between the sea and the river is now in danger. Too many active forces are creating that danger: Israel's military might and capabilities; the cult of military service under all conditions and under every government; obedience as a value; weapons and military attacks as the default modus operandi; the normalization of PTSD among soldiers and of soldiers dying by suicide; the attractions of a military career and the doors it opens; the lure of an affordable villa in a Galilee exclusionary community or a settler suburb in Samaria; the falsehoods of official and unofficial propaganda; indifference to the hell on earth Israel has created in the Gaza Strip; denial of 60 years of occupation and forced rule; the Pavlovian response, "But October 7"; the synergy among the army, the government, the rabbis and the kippa-wearing militias in the West Bank; “the synergy among the army, the government, the rabbis and the kippa-wearing militias in the West Bank; equanimity in the face of Lebanon's destruction; disregard for the occupation of more parts of Syria; the normalization of expulsion discourse; justice and education systems tainted by secular and religious racism; and the army of jailers who abuse thousands of Palestinian prisoners, both under orders and by choice.”
“Together, these and similar forces are creating the material, ideological and psychological infrastructure within Israeli-Jewish society for another mass expulsion of Palestinians and for what might accompany it: mass slaughter.
The heroes of the settler militias openly declare that expulsion is their goal. They clearly recognize the readiness of large segments of Israeli-Jewish society to participate in carrying it out, actively or passively, directly or indirectly. Through their daily provocations and crimes, committed in broad daylight and made possible only by institutional support, the Phalangists constantly seek to provoke a Palestinian act of rage and revenge that "succeeds," so that it can be exploited as the match that ignites a new holy war.”
The Jewish Phalangists and the right-wing organizations that fuel them are counting on broad mobilization, including from the leaders, voters and supporters of Yashar and the liberal Democrats party, for a war that could already be given the slogan: "One people, one army, one land cleansed of Arabs."

Excerpt From
“Otherwise Occupied | Israel isn't debating a Palestinian state. It's preparing for expulsion”
Amira Hass
Haaretz
https://apple.news/AXfwfd_KLQCWbtoXqwu2X5g
This material may be protected by copyright.

Otherwise Occupied | Israel isn't debating a Palestinian state. It's preparing for expulsion — Haaretz

Gadi Eisenkot's position on Palestinian statehood is beside the point. Across Gaza, the West Bank and Israel itself, the machinery for making Palestinian life impossible is already operating, laying the groundwork for mass expulsion

https://apple.news/AXfwfd_KLQCWbtoXqwu2X5g

Squeezingwildoranges · 01/09/2026 12:22

JadeHare · 01/09/2026 11:58

This was in Haaretz today:

“The debate over one state, two states or a federation is more theoretical than ever. Any agreed-upon solution requires first acknowledging the problem and agreeing on what it is. Too many Jews in Israel have been conditioned to believe that the problem is the very presence in this land of a Palestinian people with roots, historical and economic continuity, cultural capital and material assets, a rich agricultural heritage and a profound love of homeland.”
“Erasure" is the nightmare solution being written into reality every day. Knesset laws, politicians' declarations, military orders, school textbooks and the holy real estate battalions operating in Gaza, the West Bank and the Negev all work, together and separately, to advance this "solution" diligently and without fear of international condemnation.”
“Israeli policy is directed toward making life unbearable for Palestinians wherever they live, so that their emigration can be described as an act of free will. Within Israel itself, the authorities give Arab crime organizations free rein to arm themselves and kill Palestinian citizens in their homes. In the West Bank, those same Israeli authorities give "God's battalions" free rein to arm themselves, kill and expel, while the official army continues its raids day and night. In devastated and thirsty Gaza, the government and the army cultivate armed militias of criminal collaborators, while Israeli pilots continue to launch missiles of revenge and retribution that claim the lives of still more children. All these testosterone-fueled displays are interconnected.”
“At the same time, Israel is destroying or severely restricting Palestinians' ability to earn a living. In Gaza, that mission has been completed. A "living dead" population of aid recipients, two million people carrying the weight of some 74,000 fresh graves, families and memories, talents and professions, and evaporated savings, is crammed into roughly 150 square kilometers of scorched earth. Creativity, resourcefulness and mutual aid are dwarfed by the scale of the destruction and by Israel's prohibition on rebuilding and recovery.”
“In the West Bank, the Finance Ministry's financial noose is tightening around the necks of approximately three million people and the Palestinian Authority. The systematic theft of revenues is compounded by the army's campaigns of destruction in cities and refugee camps, as well as by the other methods used to prevent Palestinians from cultivating and developing their land: checkpoints, bureaucratic prohibitions, fences and Israeli-Jewish shepherds.”
“Within Israel itself, the "Judaization of the Galilee and Negev" was and remains code for stealing land and resources from Palestinian citizens of Israel. Discrimination against them in allocations, subsidies and employment, along with building prohibitions and demolitions, has always featured prominently in official policy within the Green Line.
Let me reiterate: The very existence of the Palestinian people between the sea and the river is now in danger. Too many active forces are creating that danger: Israel's military might and capabilities; the cult of military service under all conditions and under every government; obedience as a value; weapons and military attacks as the default modus operandi; the normalization of PTSD among soldiers and of soldiers dying by suicide; the attractions of a military career and the doors it opens; the lure of an affordable villa in a Galilee exclusionary community or a settler suburb in Samaria; the falsehoods of official and unofficial propaganda; indifference to the hell on earth Israel has created in the Gaza Strip; denial of 60 years of occupation and forced rule; the Pavlovian response, "But October 7"; the synergy among the army, the government, the rabbis and the kippa-wearing militias in the West Bank; “the synergy among the army, the government, the rabbis and the kippa-wearing militias in the West Bank; equanimity in the face of Lebanon's destruction; disregard for the occupation of more parts of Syria; the normalization of expulsion discourse; justice and education systems tainted by secular and religious racism; and the army of jailers who abuse thousands of Palestinian prisoners, both under orders and by choice.”
“Together, these and similar forces are creating the material, ideological and psychological infrastructure within Israeli-Jewish society for another mass expulsion of Palestinians and for what might accompany it: mass slaughter.
The heroes of the settler militias openly declare that expulsion is their goal. They clearly recognize the readiness of large segments of Israeli-Jewish society to participate in carrying it out, actively or passively, directly or indirectly. Through their daily provocations and crimes, committed in broad daylight and made possible only by institutional support, the Phalangists constantly seek to provoke a Palestinian act of rage and revenge that "succeeds," so that it can be exploited as the match that ignites a new holy war.”
The Jewish Phalangists and the right-wing organizations that fuel them are counting on broad mobilization, including from the leaders, voters and supporters of Yashar and the liberal Democrats party, for a war that could already be given the slogan: "One people, one army, one land cleansed of Arabs."

Excerpt From
“Otherwise Occupied | Israel isn't debating a Palestinian state. It's preparing for expulsion”
Amira Hass
Haaretz
https://apple.news/AXfwfd_KLQCWbtoXqwu2X5g
This material may be protected by copyright.

Great piece and explains the situation exactly. Israel doesn't want peace and the goal is expulsion.

NameChangedUnderstandingGained · 01/09/2026 12:42

Squeezingwildoranges · 01/09/2026 11:20

Mistakes and errors?? Jesus!

Calm down and read the entire sentence it will help you be less reactive. "will be investigated in time as with all conflicts, errors made or potential war crimes will be looked into.".

See what you did there. Try thinking a bit and reading. Stop looking for things.

OP posts:
Squeezingwildoranges · 01/09/2026 13:01

NameChangedUnderstandingGained · 01/09/2026 12:42

Calm down and read the entire sentence it will help you be less reactive. "will be investigated in time as with all conflicts, errors made or potential war crimes will be looked into.".

See what you did there. Try thinking a bit and reading. Stop looking for things.

I would say you're being a bit harsh. Perhaps they should be investigated for being naughty boys and girls. Murdering aid workers and then trying to bury the evidence. Very naughty. Very silly for not checking for mobile phones too.

SharonEllis · 01/09/2026 13:08

Honestly, there's no point @NameChangedUnderstandingGained maybe more people need to make the journey you did to consider things thoughtfully. As the anniversary of the Heaton Park murders reminds us, and as Jewish children go back to school with higher fences and more security guards, hatred has real life consequences here as well as in Israel.

Squeezingwildoranges · 01/09/2026 13:25

SharonEllis · 01/09/2026 13:08

Honestly, there's no point @NameChangedUnderstandingGained maybe more people need to make the journey you did to consider things thoughtfully. As the anniversary of the Heaton Park murders reminds us, and as Jewish children go back to school with higher fences and more security guards, hatred has real life consequences here as well as in Israel.

Why on earth would I have anything against the Jewish population in the UK. Someone who uses a sniper quad-copter to shoot a breast feeding baby in the head, yes. Anyone who supports that, them too.

BananaPeels · 01/09/2026 13:44

Squeezingwildoranges · 01/09/2026 11:11

No, this whole discussion is about rights based on religion, not naturalization. What you are talking about in the UAE is the possession of the family book. This is only for Emiratis who are native born, tribal Emiratis whose lineage in the region legally dates back to 1925 or earlier. It has nothing to do with religion unlike Israel.

But that is not what you said- you simply said
“so you are saying other countries have a different tier of citizenship as well? I can’t think of any’

i was merely pointing out that yes other countries do have different tiers of citizenship. The idea that the UAE’s reasons are morally superior to Israel’s is ridiculous. You can’t pick and choose when a country can put rules in place.

Twiglets1 · 01/09/2026 13:45

@DeterminedRat Israeli civillians are attacking 'ordinary Palestinians, such as mothers of young children, young children, elderly people and everyone in between' every single day.

The Israeli civilians you seem to be talking about are the Settlers who I have already condemned on this thread and others. Or who else are you talking about?

Not all Israeli civilians are Settlers, many are peace loving and will be appalled by the actions of the settlers and by the extreme members of their current government.

It doesn't help to lump Israelis all in together. It would be like me lumping Palestinians with extreme views (Hamas and their supporters) in with ordinary Palestinians who want to live in peace. I don't do this.

All ethnic groups have good and bad people within them. To focus only on the bad breeds hatred towards one particular ethnic group.

JadeHare · 01/09/2026 13:54

BananaPeels · 01/09/2026 13:44

But that is not what you said- you simply said
“so you are saying other countries have a different tier of citizenship as well? I can’t think of any’

i was merely pointing out that yes other countries do have different tiers of citizenship. The idea that the UAE’s reasons are morally superior to Israel’s is ridiculous. You can’t pick and choose when a country can put rules in place.

But if you move to the UAE you don’t become Emirati. If you and your husband have children there, the fact that they were born there does not make them Emirati. These Israeli Palestinians are born, from a long line of previous Palestinians in Israel. They are Israeli Palestinians. They can vote, but that’s about it. It is nothing like your analogy to people moving to the UAE and having their kids there. That’s bonkers.

BananaPeels · 01/09/2026 13:54

JadeHare · 01/09/2026 13:54

But if you move to the UAE you don’t become Emirati. If you and your husband have children there, the fact that they were born there does not make them Emirati. These Israeli Palestinians are born, from a long line of previous Palestinians in Israel. They are Israeli Palestinians. They can vote, but that’s about it. It is nothing like your analogy to people moving to the UAE and having their kids there. That’s bonkers.

So people born in the uk don’t become British?

JadeHare · 01/09/2026 13:57

You are automatically a citizen only if at least one parent was a British citizen or settled in the UK (such as having Indefinite Leave to Remain or settled status) when you were born.
If neither parent was British or settled, you do not get citizenship automatically

JadeHare · 01/09/2026 13:57

It would appear not.

DeterminedRat · 01/09/2026 14:44

Twiglets1 · 01/09/2026 13:45

@DeterminedRat Israeli civillians are attacking 'ordinary Palestinians, such as mothers of young children, young children, elderly people and everyone in between' every single day.

The Israeli civilians you seem to be talking about are the Settlers who I have already condemned on this thread and others. Or who else are you talking about?

Not all Israeli civilians are Settlers, many are peace loving and will be appalled by the actions of the settlers and by the extreme members of their current government.

It doesn't help to lump Israelis all in together. It would be like me lumping Palestinians with extreme views (Hamas and their supporters) in with ordinary Palestinians who want to live in peace. I don't do this.

All ethnic groups have good and bad people within them. To focus only on the bad breeds hatred towards one particular ethnic group.

Hamas are a proscribed group, they are terroists. Settlers aren't as I explained in my previous post that's why I say Israeli civillians. There are over 700,000 Israeli settlers, are you saying that all of them are violent degenerates, is that who you are talking about when you say settlers, every Israeli who has settled in the OPT? That's an extreme view. All of them are contributing to the illegal occupation and the oppression of Palestinians for sure but they aren't all violent individuals who beat the elderly and sexually assault people. That's just some Israeli civillians.

Obviously it isn't all Israeli civillians or even all Israeli settlers who are dangerous, violent people. The ones who are though are fully to blame for their vicious behaviour, there is no need to look to history or blame both sides like you said in a previous post.

If you have a problem with my wording perhaps start petitioning the government to proscribe them all, that way we can call them what they are.

Twiglets1 · 01/09/2026 14:54

DeterminedRat · 01/09/2026 14:44

Hamas are a proscribed group, they are terroists. Settlers aren't as I explained in my previous post that's why I say Israeli civillians. There are over 700,000 Israeli settlers, are you saying that all of them are violent degenerates, is that who you are talking about when you say settlers, every Israeli who has settled in the OPT? That's an extreme view. All of them are contributing to the illegal occupation and the oppression of Palestinians for sure but they aren't all violent individuals who beat the elderly and sexually assault people. That's just some Israeli civillians.

Obviously it isn't all Israeli civillians or even all Israeli settlers who are dangerous, violent people. The ones who are though are fully to blame for their vicious behaviour, there is no need to look to history or blame both sides like you said in a previous post.

If you have a problem with my wording perhaps start petitioning the government to proscribe them all, that way we can call them what they are.

Edited

No I am not talking about all the settlers, just the ones who engage in violent behaviour.

You do need to look at the culpability of both sides because some Palestinians are Hamas and some are enabling Hamas - some helped to hide Jewish hostages for example- so they are not all innocent of any wrongdoing.

I believe in punishing those that are actually guilty of something, be it joining a terrorist organisation, helping a terrorist organisation, or engaging in violence against innocent civilians whether those civilians are Palestinian or Israeli.

DeterminedRat · 01/09/2026 15:07

Twiglets1 · 01/09/2026 14:54

No I am not talking about all the settlers, just the ones who engage in violent behaviour.

You do need to look at the culpability of both sides because some Palestinians are Hamas and some are enabling Hamas - some helped to hide Jewish hostages for example- so they are not all innocent of any wrongdoing.

I believe in punishing those that are actually guilty of something, be it joining a terrorist organisation, helping a terrorist organisation, or engaging in violence against innocent civilians whether those civilians are Palestinian or Israeli.

Yes not all civillians on either side are innocent but not a single one of the people being battered by Israeli civillians in the West Bank are guilty of hiding Jewish or Thai hostages(everybody forgets about them for some reason 🤔). They are victims of violent, disturbing Israeli civillians. So again, I'm not sure why you were 'both siding' it when I was clearly talking about the victims in the West Bank who are suffering at the hands of Israeli civillians(who are there illegally in the first place) on the daily. There is no 'both sides' there is there?

OpenScroller · 03/09/2026 00:41

DeterminedRat · 01/09/2026 15:07

Yes not all civillians on either side are innocent but not a single one of the people being battered by Israeli civillians in the West Bank are guilty of hiding Jewish or Thai hostages(everybody forgets about them for some reason 🤔). They are victims of violent, disturbing Israeli civillians. So again, I'm not sure why you were 'both siding' it when I was clearly talking about the victims in the West Bank who are suffering at the hands of Israeli civillians(who are there illegally in the first place) on the daily. There is no 'both sides' there is there?

Edited

There's plenty of terrorists and terrorist attacks in the West Bank. Maybe you're not aware of this, strange if you're not though?

Hamas and PIJ are there too.

Plenty of attacks on 'settler' farms too with them set on fire and cattle killed with poisoned water, dates, rock and molotov cocktail throwing at cars, stabbings. I don't think it's as simple as calling the violence in the West Bank 'settler violence'.

OpenScroller · 03/09/2026 00:55

AlonsoMosley · 31/08/2026 14:13

A - Israel and Iran function in a comparable way? Sure you want to open up that chestnut?

B - usually cases before a court need proof of some kind. For a genocide case they would surely need to have data from the ground. To get that, they need to be allowed in...

That begs the question of why the Chief Prosecutor of the ICC at the time cancelled an agreed planned 'on the ground' fact finding mission to Gaza on the day the arrest warrants for Netanyahu and Gallant were issued doesn't it?

Sections 8 to 13 are of particular interest.

Request to Disqualify the Prosecutor and for Ancillary Remedies.pdf

https://israelihl.mfa.gov.il/sites/default/files/2025-11/Request%20to%20Disqualify%20the%20Prosecutor%20and%20for%20Ancillary%20Remedies.pdf

Gymimposter1977 · 03/09/2026 10:21

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