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Conflict in the Middle East

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Deeper understanding of why Israel was created

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NameChangedUnderstandingGained · 26/10/2025 16:40

I have recently visited Poland. Did a lot of reading. Visited a lot of historic sites and museums.

Oh My Gosh - I now REALLY understand why the British Mandate in Palestine created Israel. Even after the war ended Jews were still ostracised, blamed, killed, turned out of lands, unwelcome in many, many nations in Europe. The number of Jews were decimated, many survivors had to use assumed fake identification to survive, some fled to America, to Australia and Europe still wasn't safe or friendly for them hence Israel. One little bit of land where Jewish people originated, where the religion was first founded thousands of years before. A 2 state solution would have been good if both agreed and both wanted to live in peace and prosper. Israel never felt safe so built up a massive defence, built up a country and industry and wanted to prosper.

There is much harm that has been done to many peoples in history. However, the holocaust was unique. I have visited places where Jews no longer exist, they have all gone, millions died, the liquidation of Jews throughout lands, nothing Israel has done in a war is the same as this. The gas chambers, the extermination camps, the work until to drop then we kill you camps. It really is on another scale.

I am now totally pro keeping a land for Jewish people. I don't agree with settler violence but I do agree and understand why Israel needs to defend itself from terrorists who wish to wipe Jewish people from the earth just like the Nazi did.

OP posts:
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Gymimposter1977 · 03/09/2026 13:50

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DeterminedRat · 03/09/2026 13:54

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Israel killed more Palestinian children in a single day in 0ct 2023 than Palestinians(not just Hamas) have killed Israeli children since the turn of the century. Since the turn of the century Palestinians have killed 151 Israeli children, 43 of them in 2023. Israel killed more than 200 in one day of 2023.

A really shocking statistic, I think people forget the astonishing rate at which Israel were killing children at the start of the conflict.

Newbutoldfather · 03/09/2026 14:00

@Gymimposter1977 ,

‘You can't judge individuals or groups based on what they might do, that's speculation, Israel are by countless multiples, the most violent entity in the middle East, the nicest thing one could say about Israel is they simply cannot behave themselves, what dreadful neighbours to have’

I definitely can and will judge them by what they say! I think 7/10 also proves incontrovertibly that they are barbarous killers of the worst order. And how about how they ‘looked after’ the hostages?

Do you suggest I risk an experiment and get killed in the process?

I am not someone to sanctify Israel and I feel it is the diaspora’s responsibility to call Israel out for their current behaviour.

But, in the global depravity league, Hamas are right up there vying for the number one spot. Israel aren’t even in the top 10.

snakebitepassionplay · 03/09/2026 14:08

@mnhq @FayeMumsnet why was my post deleted when @Gymimposter1977 is allowed to spew racism and laugh at terror victims? what a cesspit mumsnet has become over the past few years.

keepeofthesevenkeys · 03/09/2026 14:14

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Wanting to sell people into slavery ia a new low even for mumsnet.

dairydebris · 03/09/2026 14:21

snakebitepassionplay · 03/09/2026 14:08

@mnhq @FayeMumsnet why was my post deleted when @Gymimposter1977 is allowed to spew racism and laugh at terror victims? what a cesspit mumsnet has become over the past few years.

I wondered same.

Moderation of these threads must be an absolute nightmare but some of the decisions made are baffling.

Twiglets1 · 03/09/2026 15:04

It is baffling @snakebitepassionplay why antisemitic posters are allowed to carry on posting.

MN shouldn't tolerate any blatant racism on the site, it is against their own site rules.

Cheese55 · 03/09/2026 15:50

What is the basis of the Jew hatred that has been going on historically? Before WW2 , why did people hate Jews ?

tznrknd · 03/09/2026 16:32

Cheese55 · 03/09/2026 15:50

What is the basis of the Jew hatred that has been going on historically? Before WW2 , why did people hate Jews ?

Why not ask @Gymimposter1977, they seem to be an expert at it.

Ponderingwindow · 03/09/2026 16:42

We are approaching what I think of as the statute of limitations on land and political disputes, 100 years. I know it isn’t international law, but I think it should be. Essentially the lifetime of the people who would have been involved in the actual event. After that borders are set, property is owned, and grudges must be buried. The aftermath is real, but the focus must be on dealing with the problems people face in their daily lives as they exist today, not on rehashing old arguments.

Do I think the way Israel was created was correct? No. However it is there now and that shouldn’t change.

Newbutoldfather · 03/09/2026 17:10

@OpenScroller ,

I grew up with my parents telling me exactly the narrative that you wrote on the previous page, but I think that if is really necessary to understand the other side of the story.

I don’t even think it would be good for Israel long term if they just drove the Palestinians away. It would be a stain on Israel and, by extension, on the history of Judaism.

‘Anyway, going back to the premise of the OP. Anybody with a brain, who is not an inbred Jew hater, can clearly see why Israel was and continues to be necessary as a Jewish majority State.

Let's be honest, the question of the legitimacy of any other State already existing for
70 years would never be in question. Only the world's only teeny tiny Jewish State.
There would have been hatred and war wherever they went, as there has been through history. The recreation of a Jewish State on their ancestral lands where there was already an ancient longstanding Jewish presence, and their most Holy sites were located, was common sense.’

I definitely agree with questioning the legitimacy of the state js antisemitic.

However, it was always a messy compromise. There were 750,000 people living there forced off their land. A state between Tanzania and Kenya was considered in the 1920s, so Israel wasn’t always obvious. And Israel is very holy to all three Abrahamic religions. Look at Temple Mount/site of the Golden Dome.

‘The Arabs did not have any sovereignty over the sparsely populated, mostly barren land, and were given the vast majority of it (78%) as Jordan. Getting another 10% was a bonus and lets remember, those Arabs who did not flee in the hope that the fledgling Jewish State would be wiped out in a bloody genocide by 5 established Arab armies, just a few years after the Holocaust, became Israeli citizens and by most accounts are happier to live in Israel than in the surrounding Arab States.
Israel also took in almost a million Jews who had been expelled and persecuted throughout the ME with no UN agency set up to help and become a billion $ industry! Also thousands of Ethiopian Jews who were rescued from persecution in daring missions.’

This is a bit like being forced out of London and told that the Uk is being partitioned and you have from the Midlands upwards and should be grateful! Until recently, I would have agreed about the Arabs being happy in Israel proper. But both the 2018 law and lots of local discrimination (luxury housing developments where only Jews need apply for instance) have kind of changed this.

‘It's also pure delusion to deny the Palestinian identity was created purely to be a thorn in Israel's side and birthed the ideology that created the monsters of the PLO, Hamas and the multiple other Palestinian terrorist factions.’

I don’t know about that. I am not a historical expert. However if your family have farmed olive groves in the West Bank for many generations and you have title deeds, that is both legally and morally your land, and you should be able to live in peace on it and not be harassed by aggressive religious zealots.

‘The fact there are so many, and so many terrorist attacks targeting Jews which reached as far as Europe and Africa, among such a small population should give anybody pause for thought.
Anyone who denies that could perhaps explain why the PLO didn't try to 'liberate' Palestine while the WB & Gaza were illegally occupied by Jordan and Egypt.
The Western supporters of 'Free Palestine' don't seem to understand or care that they also have blood on their hands by supporting and condoning the use of 'Palestinians' as pawns and human sacrifices, for the Arab Muslim obsession of destroying Israel with generations of children indoctrinated from toddlers to aspire to die as a martyr while slaughtering Jews, to love death more than they love life.
It is the most evil, deranged collusion in human history after he Holocaust IMO and would never have gained ground if it wasn't against Jews.’

Again some truth to all the above. But a lot of Israeli education is also pretty indoctrinating, especially in the religious communities. It just encourages a cycle of hatred.

‘What's also completely ignored about Israel is how amazingly successful it became in such a short space of time, with no natural resources to rely on in contrast to high GDP Arab States in the region. It has relied almost completely on brain power and is literally a marvel of innovation and creativity. We should be lauding it and learning from it, especially it's agri and water tech’

Again true, up to a point. But, no young country has had anywhere near the contributions from outside that Israel has. The U.S has paid handsomely for her projection of power in the Middle East.

I spent some time on a Kibbutz as a teenager and the community spirit was impressive. Israel was based on European liberal Jewry, and thrived on that educated tolerant culture. The new settlers are nothing like that. They are brash, ill educated and racist, and they have 4-6 kids per couple (rest of Israel is less than replacement). It is a dangerous time for Israel.

lifeinthemidlands · 03/09/2026 17:48

Excellent and balanced post by @Newbutoldfather . I think it's important to also mention that the whole process around founding the Israeli nation was a complete diplomatic fiasco and grounded in colonialism - Britain had initially said it would give Palestine self-determination when they "liberated" it from the Ottoman empire, but instead chose to use it for their foreign policy goals. If you view the conflict essentially as a border dispute rooted in colonialism you could say there are a lot more current conflicts where current territorial legitimacy is questioned many years after original borders were drawn.

SharonEllis · 03/09/2026 17:57

lifeinthemidlands · 03/09/2026 17:48

Excellent and balanced post by @Newbutoldfather . I think it's important to also mention that the whole process around founding the Israeli nation was a complete diplomatic fiasco and grounded in colonialism - Britain had initially said it would give Palestine self-determination when they "liberated" it from the Ottoman empire, but instead chose to use it for their foreign policy goals. If you view the conflict essentially as a border dispute rooted in colonialism you could say there are a lot more current conflicts where current territorial legitimacy is questioned many years after original borders were drawn.

If you view as a border dispute rooted in colonialism then you have completely missed the point, understood only part of the context, and will never understand the importance if the nation of Israel to the Jewish people.

lifeinthemidlands · 03/09/2026 18:10

SharonEllis · 03/09/2026 17:57

If you view as a border dispute rooted in colonialism then you have completely missed the point, understood only part of the context, and will never understand the importance if the nation of Israel to the Jewish people.

Of course it is not the whole point - but the colonial aspect is important - the land belonged to neither the Jewish people or the British Government. And the process was based on an assumption that the British Government had the right to control and give away land at will.

dairydebris · 03/09/2026 18:19

lifeinthemidlands · 03/09/2026 18:10

Of course it is not the whole point - but the colonial aspect is important - the land belonged to neither the Jewish people or the British Government. And the process was based on an assumption that the British Government had the right to control and give away land at will.

The land had passed through many empires hands before Britain had enough. Them leaving was decolonization.
Shame the 2 indigenous groups couldn't find a way to share. Opinions will differ as to who is more at fault. But Jews are not colonizers in Israel. They are indigenous.

lifeinthemidlands · 03/09/2026 18:23

dairydebris · 03/09/2026 18:19

The land had passed through many empires hands before Britain had enough. Them leaving was decolonization.
Shame the 2 indigenous groups couldn't find a way to share. Opinions will differ as to who is more at fault. But Jews are not colonizers in Israel. They are indigenous.

Colonialism isn't just staying in control, it's deciding who owns and controls the land and what territorial borders exist going forward.

dairydebris · 03/09/2026 18:28

lifeinthemidlands · 03/09/2026 18:23

Colonialism isn't just staying in control, it's deciding who owns and controls the land and what territorial borders exist going forward.

Sure.

But the formation of Israel wasn't colonization. It was decolonization. Just like India / Pakistan. Fumbled if you like.

SharonEllis · 03/09/2026 18:50

All decolonisation is messy and there was an awful lot of it in the 19th & 20th centuries. Yet the formation of the modern state of Israel alone, attracts wildly disoportionate passions.

Newbutoldfather · 03/09/2026 18:51

@lifeinthemidlands ,

Is the ‘colonial aspect’ important?

I do think that justice and the long term happiness of everyone depends on a two state solution based on the 1967 borders and a recognition that the Palestinians suffered when Israel was formed.

However, that doesn’t remove the post-Shoah context or that the existence of Israel should ever be challenged, or its original borders.

lifeinthemidlands · 03/09/2026 19:38

@Newbutoldfather i think it does matter in terms of context, particularly pre WW2 although it is certainly not the central issue. The British originally had fought for the land against the Ottoman Emire with support from various Arab armies with a vague promise of self-determination. They then pivoted to the Balfour agreement, that led to mass migration of Jewish people that changes the demographic make-up of the region even well before the Shoah. This was clear colonial control. People seem surprised that Palestinians didn’t accept the division of their land, but they had already been subjected to deceit and imposed demographic change for decades which had led to violence and instability perpetrated by both sides. And I have never said Israel was colonization - but its formation is rooted in uk colonialism.

OpenScroller · 03/09/2026 20:17

Newbutoldfather · 03/09/2026 18:51

@lifeinthemidlands ,

Is the ‘colonial aspect’ important?

I do think that justice and the long term happiness of everyone depends on a two state solution based on the 1967 borders and a recognition that the Palestinians suffered when Israel was formed.

However, that doesn’t remove the post-Shoah context or that the existence of Israel should ever be challenged, or its original borders.

So why do you think the Arabs continually rejected that then? Wasn't that offered in 2000, 2001, and 2008?

Do you not think the Jews in the region suffered before and after 1948?

You are aware of the massacres of Jews by Arabs prompting the formation of the Haganah (and the split off of the Irgun and Lehi) before Israel's formation and the decades of terrorist attacks preceding Oct 7th?

Millions of people throughout history have suffered from the combined consequences of war, border redefinition and displacement. Look at India-Pakistan - Bangladesh.

Do you think Palestinians had a particularly special case to use something that happened 3 generations ago as an excuse for decades of terrorism and an attempted genocide (which Oct 7th was) to this day?

I'm not Jewish, have never been to Israel and never did any research on either until after Oct 7th.

I am of the view of the Jewish people, in general, being the scapegoats of the dysfunctional human family which kind of resonates with me as I was the scapegoat of my own family and I also see the similar toxic shame, guilt, self blame, self doubt, internal confusion and siding with the 'enemy' as a self preservation/survival mechanism, among Israelis and the Jewish disapora.

What are your thoughts on that because I find it extremely interesting in relation to the discourse in current Israeli politics?

OpenScroller · 03/09/2026 20:25

Also @Newbutoldfather

I spent some time on a Kibbutz as a teenager and the community spirit was impressive. Israel was based on European liberal Jewry, and thrived on that educated tolerant culture. The new settlers are nothing like that. They are brash, ill educated and racist, and they have 4-6 kids per couple (rest of Israel is less than replacement). It is a dangerous time for Israel.

Where do these new settlers come from?

They speak Hebrew and seem to have been in the area for a while. There are a lot of videos on X showing altercations agitated by 'activists' to do with the farms and the violence is certainly not one sided. Cattle poisoning, rock throwing, arson and stabbing seem to be happening a lot from the Palestinian side.

Isn't the Palestinian birth rate about the same?

OpenScroller · 04/09/2026 16:37

Squeezingwildoranges · 04/09/2026 08:14

Not colonization??? Now I've heard everything. "We must expel Arabs and take their places... and, if we have to use force—then we have force at our disposal."
David Ben-Gurion

https://imeu.org/resources/resources/in-their-own-words-israeli-leaders-on-the-expulsion-of-palestinians-during-israels-establishment/226

Good grief, hardly an unbiased website there!

Please explain how an indigenous people can 'colonise' their own ancestral lands?

Do you even know the definition of colonisation?

Colonisation refers to the act or process of acquiring and settling in a territory beyond a nation’s own borders. It typically involves establishing political, economic, and social control over the indigenous population and resources of that region. A colonising power may settle its own people in the new territory, exploit local resources, and impose its cultural, legal, or religious systems.

Key Features

  • Political control: The colonising power establishes governance over the territory.
  • Economic exploitation: Colonies are often used to extract raw materials and generate wealth for the coloniser.
  • Cultural influence: Colonisation often brings language, religion, laws, and customs of the coloniser to the colonised territory.
  • Settlement: In some cases, colonisation involves relocating settlers from the home country to inhabit or dominate the land.

Who was the colonising power in Israel - which nation?