Have the events of the last couple of days changed your mind on the Israel/Gaza crisis?

[BaMamma]

Not only, but including, the macabre theatre with the coffins of the Bibas babies, Oded Lifshitz, and, as we now know, a currently anonymous Palestinian woman.

The locked coffins with no keys.

The antisemitic poster of Netanyahu as a blood sucking vampire.

The celebrations in Gaza, happy, joyful people surrounding those coffins., children dancing, parents smiling.

The 'mix-up' over Shiri Bibas body.

The discovery that the babies were murdered, not killed in an airstrike.

Does any of that change your mind about the rightness of your position on Israel and Palestine/Gaza?

I'm asking why you think Israeli abuses get so much more attention?
because our government is giving them a free pass when it doesn’t do the same for other countries.

Just popping in to say that it’s such a shame so many posters are perpetuating deep and ancient antisemitic narratives on this thread. Narratives that were used in Nazi propaganda, when Jewish people were exiled time and again from wherever they settled and sadly today in a world where antisemitism IS absolutely through the roof, that have been displayed here to name but a few:

• Suspicions around if Jewish people REALLY have it that bad
• Beliefs that Jewish people have more power than they actually do
• Beliefs Jewish people are liars or cover things up
• Beliefs that Jewish people steal - money, land livelihoods

Also, Israel is not the first, nor the most recent, country to settle in a place in not the most ideal way. But the Jewish people had been fighting for their homeland (or indeed any land) back for decades before the Holocaust and they were given it fairly and for good reasons. It was not the budding liberal metropolis that it is today - it’s a democracy that has been built up and excelled in innovation, arts, medicine, healthcare and more. This was not the case on that land in 1948. The Jewish people took it and flourished, like they have many times before (before being murdered or exiled by someone nearby who got angry about it all).

The irony of people from the UK and USA crying about “it’s not your land” would be hilarious if it wasn’t for the fact ONLY Israel gets a hard time for this. But I’ll ask those who don’t like it: what would YOU have done? If - regardless of your level of religion, looks, status or wealth - you were rounded up, had your family executed and had to push the dead bodies of your loved ones round in wheelbarrows while you are half dead and starving…you are then liberated to find the world still really fucking hates you and you’ve been exiled (again) from your home. And that Holocaust 2.0 could likely happen. If someone offered you a place where your people originated, a safe haven to be among those survivors like you to guarantee safety - what would you do?

We don’t have to be “equally passionate” about all human rights abuses to have an opinion and discuss one case of human rights abuses. Honestly, I am more passionate about human rights abuses that happen within the U.K. than outside the U.K.

I donate more money to U.K. charities than to rest of the world charities.

We can have causes that we feel more passionate about than others, you are a great example of that as you feel more passionately about antisemtism than you do islamaphobia.

The irony of people from the UK and USA crying about “it’s not your land” would be hilarious if it wasn’t for the fact ONLY Israel gets a hard time for this.

FALSE
Iraq was given a hard time for invading Kuwait
Russia is being given a hard time for invading Ukraine
Germany was given a hard time for invading France, Greece, Netherlands, Belgium and Poland (I might have missed a few countries)
China was given a hard time for invading Nepal
Japan was given a hard time for invading China and Indonesia

When were the Iraqi’s, Germans, Chinese and Japanese ever exiled from their homeland?

After WW2, Poland got to take part of Germany (ethnically cleansing the Germans) and the USSR kept a big chunk of Finland.

Just 10 years ago, Russia took Crimea, without many consequences.

Let's see what happens with Eastern Ukraine in the negotiations, and whether in 75 years time British people are still marching about Russia getting that.

It baffles me:

Chinese government does horrible stuff to the Uighurs and the UK continues to import ££££ of goods from China, loads of Chinese students continue to come to the UK - no vast weekly protest marches and tent encampments and Chinese temples being vandalised

Hamas invades Israel, murders, maims and takes hostage 100s and 100s of people - and before they've even finished, before Israel has begun to retaliate with an attack on Gaza, the PSC is applying to stage a protest March against ..... Israel. Followed by vast weekly protest marches, tent encampments and synagogues being vandalised

But no antisemitism to see here, no, none at all....

I'm not engaging further on this thread, because there are so many people who are willfully blind to this outrageous double standard.

You can lead a horse to water and all that. Off you trot, pony. I'm done.

I think China is an extremely poor example to give to be honest. Most people have an unfavourable view of china and China is not an allly of the UK. If anything it’s viewed as a threat.

Sure I don’t know why I bother spending time campaigning on the gender pay gap in the UK. Look at the Taliban - nobody is effectively dealing with them. I should probably just be grateful I’m allowed to speak.

anyway it’s difficult to respond to you. I have no idea if you are saying I am antisemitic or what it is that I’m saying.

@statsfun I’ll most likely be dead but if the Russians are treating people in Eastern Ukraine badly, I’ll be talking about it for sure. What an absolutely terrible example. I wouldn’t quite put the establishment of Israel in the same territory as the Russian invasion. Very different circumstances.

The whataboutery on this thread is astounding but I guess not unexpected. Anyway folks look over there 👉 at what's happening in another country, or at what happened 50 years ago somewhere else, just don't look at Israel otherwise you are anti semitic!

It's quite telling that you're not even attempting to answer questions or trying to understand why people are saying the things they are saying.

The poster above has it right about leading a horse to water. Not really sure why you're bothering to post tbh.

Not only look over there. But look over there at Russia and China? Is that who you have israel on a level with?

But I guess we are in agreement so. Israel is a country that commits human rights abuses. The only difference is the western world has often been standing with them in solidarity.

Setting the only Jewish nation to completely different standards and expectations of any other nation is pretty antisemitic yeah

Have they? Because the weekly protests that plague London tells me otherwise

I've been saying this constantly but it falls on deaf ears. I live in London and the takeover of central London many Saturdays provokes hatred of the Jews who live here.

The only Jewish state has chosen to set itself to a low standard, sad really, the people need to vote in a decent Government next time.

Are you marching against their annexation of Crimea?

Can't you see that by not marching every week about Russia's invasion - which is so much worse - you show the double standards?

159 crimes against Russians in London between 2021 and 2022 by the way, for a London Russian population of approximately 300,000. So one hate crime for every 2000 Russians - 24 times less than Jews.

You could say that about Gaza, where elections haven't been held since 2006. It would be good if Palestinians could also 'vote in a decent government next time.' Sad really. I am not holding my breath

It's so strange how posters seem to deliberately miss the point about these other situations.

It isn't whataboutery.

It isn't saying that those are OK.

It isn't saying that Israel is like them.

It's pointing out that if you don't object to these other regimes and annexations - but you object to Israel's actions which are less bad - you are displaying very obvious antisemitism.

The reason you object to Israel - but not the other regimes - is that Israelis are Jewish.

Yes the UK, the EU and the US are allies of Israel.

I absolutely agree that Gaza needs a new Government, I would like to see the Palestinians promised a rebuilt Gaza and the chance to vote for a decent Government. The international community could help them achieve this, but of course Israel,and now Trump, don't want that.

The UK government was against the annexation of crimea. It doesn’t recognise the claims of the Russians there. It is not a Russian ally. It’s a terrible example.

I’ll certainly be marching against the US government over the next couple of years, the way things are going. I can imagine many of us will

I’m completely against the rise in antisemitism and crimes against people because of their race or religion. Antisemitism is completely wrong and there is absolutely no justification for the rise in crimes such as these.

Oh for crying out loud.

Palestinians do not want a liberal Western democracy. 90% of them want a hardline Islamic state.

The 2006 election was a result of US and other officials spending months persuading Hamas to hold it. Who did they vote for? Hamas.

Please, please, please fact check and stop with this airy fairy ‘they want elections’ nonsense

I'm just utterly confused as to what thread you think you're on?? Did you not read the title? At the risk of repeating myself we are discussing Israel and Gaza!! Why would anyone have to bring up the regimes in other Countries before they can talk about Israel?

Let me put it to you that Hamas definitely don't want that. They will do anything and everything to prevent Palestinians to vote them out of power.

Hamas may not have high approval ratings but that isn’t because Palestinians want peace, love and harmony with Israel. They don’t. And the idea that it’s the West standing in the way of them voting in a democratic, gentle government - ha , ha , ha