Have the events of the last couple of days changed your mind on the Israel/Gaza crisis?

[BaMamma]

Not only, but including, the macabre theatre with the coffins of the Bibas babies, Oded Lifshitz, and, as we now know, a currently anonymous Palestinian woman.

The locked coffins with no keys.

The antisemitic poster of Netanyahu as a blood sucking vampire.

The celebrations in Gaza, happy, joyful people surrounding those coffins., children dancing, parents smiling.

The 'mix-up' over Shiri Bibas body.

The discovery that the babies were murdered, not killed in an airstrike.

Does any of that change your mind about the rightness of your position on Israel and Palestine/Gaza?

Well I'm sorry you wandered into the wrong thread, this one is about Israel /Gaza, I'm guessing you hadn't noticed? If you want to read people's opinions on what's happening in America, there are lots of threads running about that at the moment, I know because I've been on some of them.

Ok, but you must be equally passionate about human rights abuses in other countries, right? That only makes sense. Are you? Do YOU discuss and post about any of the other examples given? You care a lot about people suffering, obviously, so I hope you're not ignoring the millions of other people who need your voice.

So for clarity are you saying that Israel have broken international laws, but it's OK because some other Countries do that too?

I don't think the USA does try children in military courts? The UK parliament motion expressly states that Israel is the only country in the world to do this. That was in 2021, and, as I said, I'm not aware of any change. Are you saying the US does now try children in military courts, hold them in military prisons etc.?

Are you actually wanting a discussion? Or just trying for a gotcha? Because it's coming off as the later.

No, it's not ok for Israel or any other country to 'break' international law. No one has argued that it's ok.

We're curious as to why you think it might be that other abuses don't seem to get quite the same level of attention. Why do you think it is? Why do people post so much about the 18k Palestinian babies but not the millions of children starving in Yemen or the Uyghurs being forcibly sterilized and having their culture purposely destroyed?

No I don't believe it does. I was referring to the problems of using 'administrative detention' and holding people without trial at Guantanamo Bay.

Presumably if others have started a thread on those countries, interested parties will be discussing it but this is a thread about Gaza and the Palestinian people.

Im not sure how MNs here can be expected to comment on how others feel about other countries and why would they anyway on this thread about Gaza.

I'm not asking for comment on those other countries exactly. I agree those comments should be on those other threads.

I'm asking why people think there isn't nearly as much attention given to those other abuses? Why does Israel / Palestine get so much attention?

I see. The direction of the conversation confused me. I believe @MissyB1 was responding to my opinion that the UK has not made much headway in discussing concerns regarding the trial of children in military courts with Israel. I do think it's the problem with West Bank Palestinians living under
israeli rule but not being citizens. Even in Palestinian controlled areas Israel has full security and military access/control, so the population still live under Israeli control but with none of the rights of Israeli citizens. This is probably part of the reason the regime is regarded as apartheid. There are many worse regimes in the world, but the UK parliament most likely regards the partnerships and relationship we have with Israel as obligating us to address serious human rights concerns.

Agree and for what it's worth I think Israel is doing some awful things in the West Bank.
I hope there will be a new government next year.

@dairydebris Yes, the West Bank is really worrying at the moment. I don't know when elections are due in Israel. but I imagine there are many Israelis who want a change. So, let's hope.

No, it hasn´t changed my opinion. Hamas and the other such groups are animals (nothing new under the sun) and I have always had more sympathy for the Israeli cause as one of the few democracies in the area, but I find their government of today awful and the inhuman death toll in Gaza unacceptable.

People do care about those other people who are being oppressed, because lots of us are capable of caring about multiple situations at the same time. If you want a discussion on those situations you could start threads about them (what's stopping you?). But it's not appropriate to derail this thread by demanding that posters discuss those other Countries on here.

I don't know - or really care - whether Israel have broken international laws.

I think it's no more and no less OK for Israel to break international laws than any other country. And countries pretty often do: international laws are a fundamentally different beast from domestic laws.

If any country - including Israel - has broken any laws or agreements, then other countries can appeal to the usual institutions of recourse. They're not enormously helpful, but then there's only so far you can influence countries, as we see with Russia and Ukraine. Countries are automonous entities - with their own economies and armies - and the international institutions are just a forum for negotiations.

I do think it's enormously unhelpful to any possibility of future peace to pretend that Israel is unusually bad, or to insinuate that this should have any bearing whatsoever on their existence as a country, their borders, or their acceptance in international institutions. (relationships between individual countries are of course entirely the prerogative of the countries involved).

I see the individual and institutional antisemitism that makes that pretence a common response. And I also see a rather nasty - definitely antisemitic - desire to make Israel pay for real or imagined crimes. Including the crime of existing and not allowing other people to kill them.

@statsfun you may not care about Israel breaking international laws, or that their prime minister is a war criminal with an international arrest warrant against him, others might think that is actually significant. Interesting that you are so dismissive about it.

You keep avoiding the question.

Could you answer the question? It's not even remotely a derail. I'm asking why do you think Israeli human rights abuses get so much more attention than other, just as terrible, human rights abuses going on all over the world? I'm not asking you to comment on the human rights abuses themselves. I'm asking why you think Israeli abuses get so much more attention?

Elections due in 2026 I believe.

That's what I thought too. I really believe things will improve.

Well, let's not jump the gun on the war crime charges.

You have such a strong trust in international law, that presumably you agree that he should at least have a chance to defend himself before you declare him guilty?

I don't blame him for not trusting an international court though - going back to what the court actually is (a meeting place for all the different countries) and bearing in mind the widespread individual and institutional antisemitism.

I really hope so. But Netanyahu has been voted in six times (I know as coalition in some cases), so it would seem that his policies resonate with a significant proportion of the population.

You may be right but there are reasons why I came to think this. As well as an original Times of Israel November ‘23 report that Hamas said they were dead and the IDF was looking into it ( posted by me previously) there are these links.

Haaretz (Israeli news) Feb 20
We've known for some time that Shiri and her young children were no longer alive

Ynet (Israeli news) 21 February
If Israel rejected the return of their bodies in November 2023, why did the government allow the public to believe they could still come home?

Why did Israeli intelligence fail to confirm their fate sooner? Reports suggest that Israel had intelligence on many hostages but was unable to reach them without risking their execution. If the Bibas children had already been killed, why wasn't their fate disclosed? Why wasn't there a mission to recover their remains?

…… and,
Did Israelis need to wait 16 months, clinging to false hope?
There is more.
https://www.ynetnews.com/article/bymwpthqye

Daniel Hagari 21 Feb
Says, [the Bibas boys]
were both brutally murdered by terrorists while being held hostage in Gaza, no later than November 2023.

That was to @OpheliaWasntMad yesterday 22:16
I agree with most of this but regarding Netanyahu- how did he KNOW the Bibas family were already dead? Hamas lie. I dislike Netanyahu but I don’t think it’s reasonable to blame him for not revealing the Bibas family had died if he did not have definitive proof.

I also see a rather nasty - definitely antisemitic - desire to make Israel pay for real or imagined crimes. Including the crime of existing and not allowing other people to kill them

I agree completely and the irony is if Israel declared they were packing up and leaving tomorrow, these posters would be whooping and cheering, even though there are people who are now 60+ whose entire lives have been spent in Israel. They wouldn’t say how unfair/oppressive it is to be made to leave land where you have spent your entire life.

I have wondered why there is less comment and generally there is more comment and protest from the public when our government supports the violation of international law instead of condemning it and the governments responsible.

The areas you list, our government has condemned and is working to hold those responsible accountable. The opposite is happening with Israel and the US.

It cannot be “Jews must be perfect” or holding Israel to a “higher standard” as the standard everyone is being held to is the same standard of international law. The protest and extra comment come from our goverbment being hypocrites over who they hold accountable and who gets a free pass.

That is your opinion. I firmly disagree that “antisemitism…directs the Western reaction to the conflict” because the vast majority of Western governments are arming and supporting Israel.