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Conflict in the Middle East

To say that to criticise the actions of the Israeli state…

210 replies

MaggieBsBoat · 08/10/2024 04:31

Is no more anti-Semitic than being critical of the actions of the Afghanistan state is anti-islam?

OP posts:
ChallahPlaiter · 08/10/2024 08:54

JacquesHarlow · 08/10/2024 08:29

Here’s a post I never thought I’d write. I am neither a friend of Israel, nor a supporter of the horrendous acts a year ago from Hamas.

but I want to focus on something more subtle but very important to understanding the region.

The psychology of Israel.

If you’re a nation state whose entire identity is based on historical reparation and an inherent need for security as the primary driver of political thought…. Then it’s no surprise we are where we are.

Israel’s historic annexing of land such as the Golan Heights is born out of fear and a need to control its surroundings. It is a nation with national service, a fearsome security force, and an in built fervour around needing to defend its entire existence.

This is in NO WAY A JUSTIFICATION for what is genocide against Palestine and an ethnic group. I abhor this.

What I’m trying to say is, until Israel’s international enablers say “how much does self defence become aggression and genocide?” Then Israel will always, inexorably be able to rebut all accusations of genocide, due to the fervour around its existence and need to protect itself.

The international community have to say at what point does Israel have to be judged by the standards of others, and if they are judged so, does that automatically constitute “anti Semitism” because Israel has a particular unspoken right to commit international criminal acts in defence of its existence?

Had you forgotten about the wars of 1948 and 1967? Your post implies that Israel rushed about frantically grabbing land out of fear rather than the current situation being a result of complex history in the region over many years.

Saltedbutter · 08/10/2024 08:55

ChallahPlaiter · 08/10/2024 08:51

If anyone wants an example of overt antisemitism, your post is perfect.
Antisemitism is racism by the way. You’ve written a racist post.

Ha! I’d missed this.
How is that racist? You can’t just say that statements you dislike are racist - that waters down the actual severity of racism.

ChallahPlaiter · 08/10/2024 08:58

Fififafa · 08/10/2024 08:50

However other acts of genocide and ethnic cleansing are widely condemned. When it comes to Israel, it is a case of turning a blind eye. Seems like genocide is bad but some gencocide is less bad than others.

Again, an antisemitic, racist post.

Would you care to spell out exactly what it is you are implying? And why you are bandying about the term “genocide” as though it can mean whatever anyone decides it means?

ChallahPlaiter · 08/10/2024 08:59

Saltedbutter · 08/10/2024 08:55

Ha! I’d missed this.
How is that racist? You can’t just say that statements you dislike are racist - that waters down the actual severity of racism.

Are you asking me how antisemitism is racist?

Sskka · 08/10/2024 08:59

Sixpence39 · 08/10/2024 08:15

But the Hamas attack was a one off attack, with limited reach, whereas Israel's actions have been allowed to escalate for a year and have impacted millions of people on a daily basis. Not to mention the decades of atrocities they've committed on Palestinians prior.

Can you really not see the difference and why he would post about the latter? I think it's you who should be questioning yourself.

Of course you think that, you’ve taken a side. I could point out differences that might lead you to the opposite conclusion, but what’s the point?

Comedycook · 08/10/2024 08:59

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Pathetic

Saltedbutter · 08/10/2024 09:02

ChallahPlaiter · 08/10/2024 08:59

Are you asking me how antisemitism is racist?

Now you’re just being obtuse. It’s telling that after throwing around the ‘antisemitism’ slur you can’t even explain how it’s so.

Im also critical of Hamas but I know that nobody will accuse me of being Islamophobic as that’s obviously illogical. It’s the same concept.

People are dying on both ‘sides’ of this war needlessly and it’s astonishing that so many people feel they can police people’s reactions to that.

Comedycook · 08/10/2024 09:03

I'll tell you something...

I had someone rant at me about Gaza and Israel whilst I listened in silence. At the end they actually said "and you can't say anything without being called anti semetic"

Fool

Comedycook · 08/10/2024 09:04

It’s telling that after throwing around the ‘antisemitism’ slur

Look at your language used here

knitnerd90 · 08/10/2024 09:05

What a goady thread. I'm a leftist, but "antisemitism is just used to shut down criticism of Israel" is used as much by the left as a deflection as it is by the pro-Israel camp. It also deliberately conflates criticism of the actions of the state with criticism of the existence of the state.

People want to talk about double standards surrounding Israel, but you also operate a double standard about which states ought to be allowed to exist, or who should be policed. Jews in the Diaspora are openly policed for their views on Israel but the same people who do it decry policing muslims as Islamophobic (and rightly so)

Saltedbutter · 08/10/2024 09:06

Comedycook · 08/10/2024 09:04

It’s telling that after throwing around the ‘antisemitism’ slur

Look at your language used here

I put it in hyphens as the phrase had been used above in the post I was responding to. Unless you’re taking the objection to me calling it a slur? I think accusing people of being racist is extremely serious and so is a slur if used out of context.

SallyWD · 08/10/2024 09:07

www.ipsos.com/en-uk/uk-attitudes-toward-conflict-israel-and-gaza
This poll is interesting and was published 4 days ago. It seems opinions on this conflict are very divided, which is no surprise.
However, 60% of people believe Israel's military action has "gone too far". 12% think Israel's actions are "about right".
Are the 60% of people who believe Israel have gone too far, all antisemitic? Are the 12% who think Israel's actions are about right, all islamaphobic? The answer to both questions is no.
People are just rightly concerned about this conflict and the resulting humanitarian crisis.

ChallahPlaiter · 08/10/2024 09:08

Saltedbutter · 08/10/2024 09:02

Now you’re just being obtuse. It’s telling that after throwing around the ‘antisemitism’ slur you can’t even explain how it’s so.

Im also critical of Hamas but I know that nobody will accuse me of being Islamophobic as that’s obviously illogical. It’s the same concept.

People are dying on both ‘sides’ of this war needlessly and it’s astonishing that so many people feel they can police people’s reactions to that.

I literally asked you a question, for clarification.
I didn’t ask for the contents of your mind. Just yes or no would be fine.

Comedycook · 08/10/2024 09:08

Saltedbutter · 08/10/2024 09:06

I put it in hyphens as the phrase had been used above in the post I was responding to. Unless you’re taking the objection to me calling it a slur? I think accusing people of being racist is extremely serious and so is a slur if used out of context.

No that was not what I was referring to.....

Dear oh dear

Saltedbutter · 08/10/2024 09:08

ChallahPlaiter · 08/10/2024 09:08

I literally asked you a question, for clarification.
I didn’t ask for the contents of your mind. Just yes or no would be fine.

Ok, another obtuse post with no substance. This is a bit pointless isn’t it?

Comedycook · 08/10/2024 09:10

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And this is a great example of how even if haven't called something anti semetic, it is assumed we will....

ChallahPlaiter · 08/10/2024 09:12

Saltedbutter · 08/10/2024 09:08

Ok, another obtuse post with no substance. This is a bit pointless isn’t it?

If you don’t want to answer, fine. Enjoy your day.

SallyWD · 08/10/2024 09:13

Comedycook · 08/10/2024 09:10

And this is a great example of how even if haven't called something anti semetic, it is assumed we will....

Well it did actually happen. She was accused of being antisemitic, if you care to scroll back.

ChallahPlaiter · 08/10/2024 09:14

Comedycook · 08/10/2024 09:10

And this is a great example of how even if haven't called something anti semetic, it is assumed we will....

Because we weaponise it so we can get away with our favourite pastimes of drinking the blood of children and behaving like genocidal nazis undisturbed, am I right?

Comedycook · 08/10/2024 09:14

ChallahPlaiter · 08/10/2024 09:14

Because we weaponise it so we can get away with our favourite pastimes of drinking the blood of children and behaving like genocidal nazis undisturbed, am I right?

And controlling the world obviously 😉

ChallahPlaiter · 08/10/2024 09:15

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ChallahPlaiter · 08/10/2024 09:15

Comedycook · 08/10/2024 09:14

And controlling the world obviously 😉

Edited

I enjoy that aspect of being Jewish enormously. I just love the power!

SallyWD · 08/10/2024 09:16

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I absolutely do but could see nothing in her statement that was antisemitic. Believe me, I would have called her out, if I had.

Hoppinggreen · 08/10/2024 09:17

Certain sections of the Jewish and/or Israeli community Do use accusations of Anti semitism to silence criticism
However, having experienced Anti semitism for literally thousands of years its hardly surprising that they see it everywhere

ChallahPlaiter · 08/10/2024 09:21

Hoppinggreen · 08/10/2024 09:17

Certain sections of the Jewish and/or Israeli community Do use accusations of Anti semitism to silence criticism
However, having experienced Anti semitism for literally thousands of years its hardly surprising that they see it everywhere

Are we mad? Or just paranoid?

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