To say that to criticise the actions of the Israeli state…

[MaggieBsBoat]

Is no more anti-Semitic than being critical of the actions of the Afghanistan state is anti-islam?

Well that’s your problem. You’re not actually listening to what I say. I don’t think I’m clever, but I do think you’re being stupid by metaphorically sticking your fingers in your ears and saying you can’t hear anyone who you perceive as disagreeing with you, when they actually don’t! That’s the irony. I think any nuanced arguments are lost on you, unfortunately.

No your post wasn't nuanced. It's pretty easy to understand. You thought using that trope would highlight the fact that you think it's ironic that what the Jewish people went through during the holocaust is somehow being repeated by Israel in Gaza? Right?

That is disgusting and as a pp said you should be ashamed.

There are plenty of pro Palestine posters on here who are able to get their opinion across without resorting to such behaviour.

Can't say I'm qualified to answer but Professor Khalil Shikaki, of the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research, has spent over 3 decades studying this subject and has said that "The support for Hamas comes from various sources, but the most important one is because Palestinians share Hamas' values. They will support Hamas for that, even if Hamas makes wrong moves here or there."

The fact that when Hamas won the election in 2006 they did so on a platform that included a commitment to eradicate Israel would suggests that Palestinians are not all that interested in a two-state solution either.

And if both sides don't want peace then that means one side or the other will have to be removed from the equation for 'peace' to be achieved.

I’m glad this thread has been started.

I am Jewish. I didn’t reveal that on earlier threads on which I have supported a ceasefire and criticised the current Israeli government’s & military’s actions.

Recently, I agreed with a poster who remarked that MN has become a place where it seems like even mild criticism of Israel’s government and military actions triggers accusations of anti-Semitism. They lamented how this then results in shutting down conversations that are worth having.

I was then accused of being antisemitic myself, my posts on that thread reported as anti-Semitic and inflammatory were deleted, and I received an email from MNHQ saying I needed to take this on board or they might have to suspend my account. They said one of the posters who had reported a post was also Jewish.

I responded letting them know I am also Jewish and they should understand that even Jewish people can have a difference of opinion on what is and is not antisemitic.

I have since name changed as the whole episode has disturbed me. I should not have to say ‘I am Jewish” at the start of any post even mildly critical of Israel to shield myself.

Who has called for a Hamas state?

You thought using that trope would highlight the fact that you think it's ironic that what the Jewish people went through during the holocaust is somehow being repeated by Israel in Gaza? Right?

Wrong. What I think is ironic is that the hideous dehumanising of people, through language and actions, which led to such appalling slaughter in the Holocaust, is now being demonstrated towards the Palestinians by some of those whose families suffered themselves from the consequences of such brutality.

From an article in the Guardian:

Israeli political, military and religious leaders have at different times described Palestinians as “a cancer”, “vermin”, and called for them to be “annihilated”. They are frequently portrayed as backward and a burden on the country.

When Israel’s defence minister, Yoav Gallant, ordered a “complete siege” of the Gaza Strip with “no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed”, he said: “We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly.”

Hamas may be thus described, but not the civilians who are bearing the brunt. Are they also ‘animals’?

When someone describes the atrocities Hamas committed on 7/10 as an “one-off attack with limited reach” they’re deliberately trying to minimise Hamas’ actions.

I watched a statement Konstantin Kisin (Triggernometry) released couple of days ago, where he talks about 7/10 in comparison to 9/11. It really puts the numbers into perspective:

“If we take 9/11, the most impactful terrorist attack in living memory, that shook the world’s dominant superpower to its very core, we see that 2,977 people were killed in a country of 285 million people.
On October 7th approximately 1,200 people were killed in a country of just 9 million people. (…)
So if October 7th was Israel’s 9/11, on a per capita basis only 100 people would have been killed.
In other words, October 7th was at least 12 times as bad as 9/11, and that’s before accounting for the fact that Hamas took hundreds of hostages many of whom have been killed since.”

I mean I'm not far off...you think the actions of Israel are ironic considering the holocaust during ww2. We all understand what you meant....it's not especially tricky to understand and it is still deemed to be an anti semetic thing to say....not by just by me specifically but by the official definitions of anti semetism..

You can be pro Palestinian without saying such things as plenty of posters manage

“The fact that when Hamas won the election in 2006 they did so on a platform that included a commitment to eradicate Israel would suggests that Palestinians are not all that interested in a two-state solution either.”

The 2006 platform was a marked departure from their earlier ideology. It did not include a commitment to “eradicate Israel” (that was their earlier ideology) but a commitment to resist the occupation (already deemed illegal in earlier UN resolutions) with a clear and repeated commitment to 1967 borders (2 state solution). That is how they got the votes.

The original 1988 goal of destroy Israel is both watered down and vague phrases that pop up here and there- e.g. “without recognising Israel” and “until all of historic Palestine is free.” A study by Cambridge University Press on this transition of Hamas from boycott to participation, points out this is largely because a more moderate faction in favour of a two state solution became dominant over the earlier one which even fought against the Oslo accords of the 1990s. https://www.cmi.no/publications/file/4482-explaining-hamass-changing-electoral-strategy.pdf

Even so, 2006 is as far from us as 1988 is from 2006, so it is wisest imho to gauge Palestinian interest and intentions based on current events and words than those said a generation or two ago.

Gently, your point on dehumanisation of Palestinians is valid. To make it without crossing into Anti-Semitism consider referencing it as one of the conditions described by genocide experts and historians that is on the path to a possible genocide happening.

(Caveat- although I am Jewish, my opinion does not speak ‘for all Jews’ - I hate that I feel the need to say this.)

Approximately 42,000 dead in Gaza, mostly women and children out of a population of 2,000,000. In other words that's at least 156 times as bad. And that's before accounting for the 100,000++ casualties.

I'm glad you're commenting. I made the point earlier that our locals rabbis have recently condemned Israel's military action. I've seen plenty of other Jewish people condemning it too.
I'm aware that these discussions can lead to people expressing antisemitic views. I've seen antisemitic views on Mumsnet and social media, and also a lot of islamaphobic views. These views should always be challenged.
However, we simply can't say that any criticism of Israel's actions is antisemitic. If some Jewish people are condemning the actions themselves, then why would you assume antisemitism? According to a poll published 4 days ago, 60% of the UK feel that Israel has gone too far. Only 12% feel they haven't. This isn't antisemitism- this is a very grave concern about all the innocent people that are being killed. 60% of UK are against Israel's current campaign. I refuse to believe that 60% of the UK are antisemitic. I'm sure the same 60% whoheartedly condemned the Hamas attack too. We need to be able to discuss this situation objectively without being called antisemetic or Islamaphobic.

Obviously no one thinks (despite lots trying to tell us otherwise) that all criticism of Israel is anti semetic.

However that doesn't mean that anti semetism doesn't exist nor does it mean that anti semetism isn't being displayed in many of the debates around the conflict.

Agreed, that's why I said I'd seen antisemitism on MN and social media.

How dare you accuse me of being racist. I’ve said absolutely nothing of the sought. I’m reporting this to Mumsnet.

I'm totally with you Jane.

Israel is the Jewish state. In my eyes if you criticise Israel as an entity you are being antisemitic.
Criticising the Government is not antisemitic just as criticising the UK Government doesn't make you anti British.

A one off 🤣

I actually don't even have energy to reply.
Hamas is a terrorist organisation, no different to ISIS. Enough said.

I think it's a given though when people refer to "Israel did X" "The United States did Y" etc., they're referring to the government of that country and not the people of the country? We all know it's not Israeli citizens directly doing this and nobody is saying that (I'd hope)

I honestly think a lot of people just don’t understand anti-semitism. It’s a weird blind spot because when you use analogies with other ethnicities people then get it. Comparing Israel to the Nazis? What’s wrong with that? Well it’s a bit like saying that because black people were historically enslaved in the west it’s ironic that modern slavery now exists in Africa. You’re saying ‘they’ are all the same; you’re saying the scale, power and intention are equivalent; you’re implying that historical slavery wasn’t that bad etc.

Personally I think there is debate to be had about definitions of racism but again it’s interesting that some groups (the Labour Party) are interested in debating the definition of anti-semitism but embrace anti-racism wholeheartedly in every other context.

I also think people don’t always understand nuance. For example I know people who criticise the war in Gaza (absolutely fine in principle), but the tone and language they use comes across as pretty racist: it’s the vitriol, the sneering, talking about Israelis and saying things like “they’re vile”.

Not everyone who criticise the Israeli government’s actions is an antisemite. They are far-right war criminals. However, all antisemites do.

This is the nature of war the world over. Why are Jewish people held to a different standard because we were industrially and systematically slaughtered in the 1940s? Why do we have to be better than anyone else or be compared to those who tried to eliminate us and decimated our numbers for generations to come?

I don’t think anyone should talk in these terms. But they do. So why is it worse when it’s Jews doing it?

The moderation of these threads is a joke. Mumsnet are afraid to challenge the posters who call any disagreement with Israel's actions antisemitic.

It's not about holding Israel to a higher standard, it's about having the same expectation of Israel that we would have of any other first world democratic Country, i.e. to uphold international law, not to deliberately break international laws of conflict. And notice you said "Jewish People" I said Israel - as in the Country.

First world?