To say that to criticise the actions of the Israeli state…

[MaggieBsBoat]

Is no more anti-Semitic than being critical of the actions of the Afghanistan state is anti-islam?

Wow so this is the mentality we have. Disgusting.

Do Hamas have any bunkers for their citizens?

Do Hamas care that they keep pulling their citizens into violence?

No and they actively put them in danger when they hide where many civilians are.

Fair point

Here’s a post I never thought I’d write. I am neither a friend of Israel, nor a supporter of the horrendous acts a year ago from Hamas.

but I want to focus on something more subtle but very important to understanding the region.

The psychology of Israel.

If you’re a nation state whose entire identity is based on historical reparation and an inherent need for security as the primary driver of political thought…. Then it’s no surprise we are where we are.

Israel’s historic annexing of land such as the Golan Heights is born out of fear and a need to control its surroundings. It is a nation with national service, a fearsome security force, and an in built fervour around needing to defend its entire existence.

This is in NO WAY A JUSTIFICATION for what is genocide against Palestine and an ethnic group. I abhor this.

What I’m trying to say is, until Israel’s international enablers say “how much does self defence become aggression and genocide?” Then Israel will always, inexorably be able to rebut all accusations of genocide, due to the fervour around its existence and need to protect itself.

The international community have to say at what point does Israel have to be judged by the standards of others, and if they are judged so, does that automatically constitute “anti Semitism” because Israel has a particular unspoken right to commit international criminal acts in defence of its existence?

This.

I think the vast majority of people are anti war and anti innocent civilians dying no matter who they are.

Someone said it upthread. It’s the fixation with Israel that reveals the antisemitism. It’s obsessed about by protestors and critics because it’s the only Jewish state.

The common thread in all anti-Israel and anti-US and -UK policy towards Israel is that the sole Jewish state and homeland is at issue.

There is no fixation on other conflicts or territorial disputes.

I accept that people have different views so I wouldn't not talk to someone or ditch a friendship- unless they went on about it and refused to accept I had different views.

I don't agree with the word genocide and also feel that Israel is being described as the aggressor when they were the victim of a terrorist attack. Israel is a democratic country, of course people have a right to think what they want but some of the words used ignore the fact it is a sovereign state with the right to protect itself as be the right to vote in the PM they want.

This. As Dr Sharone Lifschitz (whose elderly father is still a hostage in Gaza) said, it's not like a football match where you just pick a team. There are human beings on both sides.

I'm horrified by the suffering of the Jewish people who were subjected to Hamas's atrocities on October 7th, and by the ongoing anguish for the hostages and their loved ones. But I'm equally horrified by the shattering of lives in Gaza and now in Lebanon, by the indiscriminate killing and maiming of innocent people who just want to get on with their lives in peace.

It is absolutely possible to believe that the Israeli government is committing war crimes while simultaneously believing that Hamas and Hezbollah are terrorist groups. We can condemn both. Criticising one does not automatically mean that we are siding with the other.

I am only on the side of innocent civilians, regardless of their ethnicity, their beliefs or their geographical location. They are just human beings and I want the suffering to stop.

the day I see thousands of people across the world marching on the streets to criticise the Islamic regime and defend the plight of Afghan women, then we can talk about whether it constitutes Islamophobia or not.

I wonder why they don’t?

No it wasn’t. Israel has been hit every day since 7th October 2024 with 65000 Israelis being displaced. And it was under constant attack before 7th October as well - hence the Iron Dome.
This is what I’ve said all along. It’s impossible to pick a side. There aren’t even just two sides, there are multiple players, proxies and groups with links to other oppressive regimes instead. I feel the protests we’ve seen over the last year are misguided and futile, because if you defend a “side” you are condoning some appalling actions, whoever you choose.

I think it"s perfectly possible to condemn the Hamas attack a year ago as an atrocity, while at the same time also to think that the Israeli Goverment's response has been wholly disproportionate and therefore to condemn that too.
I can understand both actions but understanding them doesn't mean I agree with them or excuse them
I'm neither an anti-semite not an Islamaphobe, but I don't believe anybody should tell me that I can't criticise the actions of both Hamas and the Israeli Government as organisations, particularly when the death toll of innocent civilians continues to rise.

You are correct! On another thread though there was quite an uproar when it was suggested that criticism of Israel is anti-semitic.

This!

I have reported this post to ask that it be moved to the CITME board where it belongs before it becomes yet another pile on.
This is yet another ingenuous post the same as one of about 3,000 posts exactly the same - all probably written by about 20 people under different names - in the last months and you will have plenty of company over there of people who think exactly like you do.

No criticising the Israeli government does not get you labelled as anti semetic. I'm pretty fed up with the gaslighting that Jewish people are having to put up with. In fact several times I've been accused on the citme of calling posters anti semetic when I've said no such thing. First time it happened I actually had to go back and check my posts but I'm totally used to it now.

Here's a theoretical example of the difference between criticising Israel and saying something anti semetic.

"I think what the Israeli government is doing in Gaza is terrible"

This is not anti semetic

"I think what the Israeli government is doing in Gaza is terrible...they are behaving like the Nazis did"

This is anti semetic.

Now what will happen is when the second phrase is used and someone calls it out, the person who said it will protest that all they'd done is criticise Israel.

More examples if anyone is interested.

Discussing the conflict is fine.

Deciding to discuss the conflict in the comments section on a social media post about Anne frank or Holocaust victims is not.

The latter is something I see all the time on social media

However other acts of genocide and ethnic cleansing are widely condemned. When it comes to Israel, it is a case of turning a blind eye. Seems like genocide is bad but some gencocide is less bad than others.

If anyone wants an example of overt antisemitism, your post is perfect.
Antisemitism is racism by the way. You’ve written a racist post.

Sorry, what do you think it says?

UN Women condemned the Hamas sexual violence on 5 December 2023 based on allegations alone. They started started lobbying Israel to allow a UN team into the country to investigate (standard practice). The BBC reported at the time that Israel had delayed sexual violence investigation for the first three months because Israel’s top priority had been identifying the remains, not doing a crime scene investigation:
”This was a mass casualty event," police spokesman Dean Elsdunne told journalists at a briefing. "The first thing was to work on identifying the victims, not necessarily on crime scene investigation. People were waiting to hear what happened to their loved ones."

Pamela Patten, the Special Representative of the Secretary-General on Sexual Violence in Conflict, led an official visit to Israel from 29 January to 14 February to gather, analyse and verify reports of sexual violence related to the 7 October attack. The report was published on 11 March 2024.

So what was happening from early Dec to late Jan?
However, as late as 16th January, 2024 Israel was blocking UN investigators:
”In recent weeks, senior physicians and hospital staff who treated October 7 victims and released hostages have received letters and emails from the commission, which operates under the UN Council for Human Rights. The commission requested information and interviews for its investigation of international and gender-based crimes since the beginning of the current Israel-Hamas war.”
“Israel’s Kan public broadcaster reported that the Justice Ministry instructed the legal department of the Health Ministry to tell Israeli doctors and others involved in the care of October 7 victims and released hostages not to speak with the committee of inquiry. Foreign Ministry spokesperson Lior Haiat called the commission “an anti-Israeli and antisemitic body” and said Israel would not cooperate with it.”
https://www.timesofisrael.com/government-forbids-doctors-from-speaking-to-un-group-investigating-oct-7-atrocities/

In the case of sexual violence against Palestinians, that report wasn’t published by the UN until the 9th of September 2024. Again, the gap is due to delayed Israeli permission to access to the areas under investigation, including interviewing victims, eyewitnesses and healthcare professionals in order to gather the evidence for a UN report, rather than the UN treating Israeli victims preferentially to Palestinian victims of sexual violence during this armed conflict.

Do you know what I saw when I went to mourn in Manchester yesterday? A group with their hands painted red holding the Palestinian flag shouting the usual slogans. If people think the Ramallah lynching is something to symbolise like a Nike tick then they’ve totally lost their heads like some of you have.

Exactly. Well said.

Oh the UN lol. They’ve been great lately with Hamas on their seats.