To say that to criticise the actions of the Israeli state…

[MaggieBsBoat]

Is no more anti-Semitic than being critical of the actions of the Afghanistan state is anti-islam?

Hamas raped, slaughtered and mutilated men, women and children, not 1 single women's body could be show to their family due to the levels of abuse and mutilation they suffered.
Let that sink in.
Add to that the hostages they took and still hold over a year later.
Now please explain your minimisation of such crimes against humanity as it was only once

This. Awful to see this minimisation

It's really disgusting when you look at how the Jewish community in this country conducts itself and behaves to see such huge numbers of people turning against them.

Criticising the Israeli government's actions is not inherently antisemitic but a lot of antisemites are jumping on that criticism to push antisemitic views.
The post quoted above is a perfect example of the issue at hand. This poster can't even make a criticism of the Israeli government without slipping off into a 'the Jews control the media / all Jews are the same' tirade.

I've also noticed that when discussing Islamic government atrocities commentators will go to great lengths to differentiate between the people and the government. We don't speak about the Afghan government or Palestinian government, we talk about the Taliban and Hamas. Even with Iran it's the 'Iranian Regime' to highlight that their hardline stance supposedly stands apart from the average Iranian.

Yet when it comes to the Israeli government it's just Israel, as if the entire country (and in some people's mind, the entire Jewish population of the world) is one homogeneous group that backs Netanyahu to the hilt.

I'm not turning against them though. In fact I feel for them deeply.

What I am against is the Israeli administration behaving in the way it has, I do not believe this is in relation to the October 7 attack. Bombing Beirut will not bring peace. As someone said on another thread, you cannot bomb your way to peace and all sides need to achieve a constructive solution and start genuine, lasting dialogues about the situation and the region.

There needs to be comprehensive peace talks, and people like the US and the UK need to step out of it, as well as Russia and Iran. Having these foreign powers using the region and the people of the Middle East to fight their proxy wars is never going to end well. All sides need to be able to come to the table, and at some point that will need to involve the removal of Hamas and Hezbollah from power to allow governments to be formed. How that would happen, I do not pretend to know the ins and outs. But it's clear that the current situation is not beneficial to anyone, and it's desperately sad.

Does it make me antisemitic to say that? I don't think it does.

Please don't minimise the horrific murder of hundreds of people to say nothing of the rapes.

It's possible to the condemn actions of Israel without using language designed to deliberately downplay the slaughter of so many innocents that triggered this current situation.

Neither I would hope.
My point (apologies if made badly) is that Jewish people have been subjected to awful anti semitism for so long that its a natural assumption that any criticism has its roots in anti semitism while in some cases it may not. They hear hoofbeats and assume horses rather than zebras
I do not believe that I am anti semitic, I respect the right of Israel to exist and defend itself BUT I also condem the death of so many women and children in Gaza and beyond.

Its not antisemitic to criticise the actions of the israeli government or to actively protest. Antisemitism has been hugely on the rise with both overt hate crimes and insidious undercurrent of vileness. Both are true. It is vital we stand with the jewish people against this.

The punishment of a whole people because of the actions of a few is nothing new, talk to muslims and anyone not white after 9/11

Hammas is horrific and if we would round up everyone involved in 7th October, I would hand them over and turn away and hope they feel the pain they caused. I pray they are destroyed.

There is always, always "but they were only doing it in response to X" and you can do that back to the beginning of time. No October 7th can never be explained, mitigated or forgiven. The slaughter of innocents and children must always be condemned but same goes for Gaza. There are too many reports of war crimes for it to all be an exaggeration or 'one bad apple'. Look at Hind. Look at the clearly marked aid vehicals with bullet holes or the bodies of those from the world kitchen and doctors without borders or the massacre of people collecting aid. All reported by multiple news outlets.

In response to 'it must be antisemitism because no one is responding this way to other global conflicts'. I would say for me it was actually the use of social media by the people of Gaza particularly journalists like Motaz and Bissan. I didn't seek out this content but it was widely shared and I now do follow them. Reading about the terrible attacks in Ukraine with a single photo of moving tanks is very different to a livestream of childrens bodies being pulled from rubble as parents scream. For the first time we are watching war in our palms as real people die. It adds an urgency and terror and has, rightly, directly impacted people. When you see that you don't care about nuances you just want to get the babies out. That's my take on why this conflict has been received so differently.

What happened on the 7th October is appalling

What happened if Gaza was / is appalling

What’s happening in Lebanon is appalling

Leadership in all sides is shocking

The current attacks in Lebanon are not about October 7

The “exploding pagers” was planned and started long before October 7

There is no resolution, as the people involved do not place any value of the lives of innocent people

You can condemn Hammas, Hezbolla, and the IDF

The Saudis would love for Iran to get a kicking ..

I wish I didn’t live in a country with an Arms Trade (supported by the govt) that had no problem with weapons bombing hospitals and killing children

Well , to be honest I think your mum has a point

Are you saying that terrorism is justified?

Certain sections of the Black community Do use accusations of racism to silence criticism
However, having experienced racism for literally thousands of years its hardly surprising that they see it everywhere

Is that acceptable?

@herecomesautumn no, and I have not done that in any of my posts.

I think Hamas, Hezbollah AND the Israeli government have all taken steps that are wrong. I fully condemn October 7. I condemn the recent terror attack in Tel Aviv and the countless other terror attacks in Israel. I condemn Iran bombing Israel.

But I also condemn Israel bombing Beirut, and the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians, mainly women and children, on all sides.

As I said in my other post, I think that there needs to be constructive peace talks. But I do not see how they could be realistically achieved at the moment. But it is clear that something needs to be done. This is an all out war.

Criticism of Israel isn't inherently anti-semitic, but a lot of the criticism is anti semitic nonetheless.

I think we may criticise. But if that criticism holds Israelis to different standards that others, or is more critical of Israel than it is of other states commiting the same or worse crimes, then that post can be accused of anti semitism.

The amount of posts denying anti semitism while employing anti semetic tropes to attempt to make their point is frequently shocking to me.

If a Jewish person says that they feel your comment is anti sematic, I think we'd be better to interrogate ourselves as to why that would be. If a black person accused you of racism would you not honestly try to understand why they felt it was racist rather than immediately writing off their experience of what you said?

Ultimately, no one here can see into another's heart to see if they really hate Jews. But a lot of what is said certainly sounds anti semitic.

I think a lot of it is ignorance rather than hate, but the near constant shouting down of cries of anti semitism shows a lack of willingness to learn and listen.

No matter what your standpoint on the situation there is always one thing that sticks out.

It's men.

It's always men.

Yes, that is the overwhelming impression isn't it? Women and children are suffering needlessly.

This could all be solved by them sitting down and negotiating a robust peace deal, but it won't happen

I think so.
Racism and anti semitism are very real BUT not all criticism of black and/or Jewish people is down to their race or colour - although I agree that much of it is

BUT if we NEVER raise concerns about the actions of Israel even if its from a Human Rights perspective because we are frightened of accusations of anti semitism aren't we treating Israel differently than we would any other regime?
Israel being the Jewish homeland doesn't give it a free pass to do whatever it wants with no criticism.
I criticise Israel NOT Jewish people as I would criticise Afghanistan not Muslims and Putin not Russians

I’m sure the pp can understand what they’re hearing and can decide.

A post of mine was deleted the other day, no doubt because it was reported for being anti-Semitic. Nothing could be further from the truth. I did ask a question about how Palestinians were perceived by some Israelis, and employed a common trope used in Nazi propaganda. This was intended to underline the irony that a state founded to protect people who had endured the most awful persecution, is now dishing it out to other innocents, not as an anti-Semitic dig. Speaking out against the excesses of the Israeli Government is not the same as being anti-Semitic, which I categorically am not.

It really depends on whether you're holding Israel to a higher standard then you would apply to any other state. In that case it can be anti-semitic, or a cover for antisemitism.

Well if they want to decide that saying the death of thousands of women and children is abhorent = anti semitic then theres not much I can do about that.
Anti semitism is definitely on the rise and should be challenged as should anti Islamism but my views are based on compassion for innocent civilians not hatred for any one group.

If you're criticising black or Jewish people as a group of people identified only because they're black or Jewish then that is racist or anti-semitic.

Your denying the individuals who are in that group the opportunity to be individuals based on their actions and pumping them in with other people just because of their ancestry.

Going back to this analogy. Why would you, as a non Jewish person, think you can say what is horses or zebras over a Jewish person?

Equating what Jewish people suffered during the Holocaust to what Israel's current government is 'dishing out' to Hamas is most definitely, definitely anti semetic. You should be really ashamed.

One of the things that makes me angry about this whole shit show is that it doesn't seem that the arsehole Netanyahu has prioritised getting the hostages back in any way shape or form. I see the pictures of these poor people and all Netanyahu cares about is using the awful events of Oct 7th as an excuse for war. His priority should be getting these people back not using it as an excuse to kill as many people as he can.

From The Times of Israel:

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu reportedly told Defense Minister Yoav Gallant on Thursday that he was prioritizing his stance of maintaining Israeli troops in the Philadelphi Corridor over saving the lives of the remaining hostages in Gaza.

It's so sad. One extremist facing up to another and no one giving a shit about the innocent people caught in the middle.

@EasternStandard but when someone can say I am a Nazi, or like hitler, for saying I disagree with the deaths of innocent people on all sides, where does the line get drawn? Or accusing me of supporting terror attacks because I say I don't agree with everything that the Israeli government has done?

How is that fair, or okay?