To think that the blame lies with Hamas and Israel deserves our support

[measuringmylifeincoffeespoons]

Of course, the deaths of the aid workers recently is a terrible tragedy and it is entirely right that Israel is investigating why it happened and holding members of the IDF responsible.

However, the criticism of Israel seems to miss a fundamentally important point which is that Israel is engaged in military operations in Gaza for one reason only: the barbaric terrorist attacks that were committed by Hamas on 7 October and their continued imprisonment of Israel citizens as hostages.

Of course, the deaths of the aid workers is a tragedy. Every civilian death that occurs in a war is a tragedy. But the reality is that that is what happens in a war, and Hamas is responsible for the fact that there is a war.

The war can be ended, and billions of dollars of aid can be released into Gaza, very simply. Hamas simply needs to lay down its arms and release the Israeli citizens that it has taken hostage and continues to keep imprisoned.

Unless and until Hamas do that, the state of Israel deserves our continuing support in its battle against a brutal terrorist organisation that has kidnapped the innocent civilians of a democratic state.

@measuringmylifeincoffeespoons Hamas and the rest of the world know full well that Israel are happy killing any civilian and even more so if they believe that civilian is 'defending' a terrorist. Not a very good shield then, is it.

Snipers shooting children is not "just what happens in war". Bombing hospitals is not either. Starving a population isn't either. This flippant acceptance of blatant war crimes is disgusting.

In 6 months and Israel have done nothing effective to save those hostages. They don't care about them or their families and are using them as pawns to carry out genocide. They could be doing special operations to locate them instead the only hostages released have been through negotiating with Hamas. The rest are still hostage or have been bombed or shot by Israel. Catch on.

Yes, and Isreal are aware of this yet continue their indiscriminate bombardment like there are no other options available to them. Isreal are aware of this and increase the suffering of these ‘human shields’ and ensure that aid doesn’t reach them so they get to starve and suffer without medicine before some arsehole uses them.

Fuckin’ hell, OP. You’re on the Kool-Aid early.

Hadjab

What evidence do you advance to support the proposition that Israel is "deliberately" targeting civilians with an "intention" to destroy them? As opposed to being engaged in a war resulting from the actions of Hamas on 7 October which give rise to civilian casualties- as all wars do.

How does the existence of Israel's strategy to mitigate the impact on civilians fit with your notion that it is engaged in genocide?

Whereas you appear to be simply ignorant.

YABVU, was very glad to read in the news yesterday that UK support for Israel has nosedived as the war goes on.

Some of the 'evidence' is evident in the speeches of Israel's politicians
https://www.newarab.com/news/israeli-minister-may-golan-proud-gazas-destruction
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/defense-minister-announces-complete-siege-of-gaza-no-power-food-or-fuel/

When Israeli soldiers have been shooting Palestinian civilians and children for decades, why exactly would they use them as a shield?
If Hamas was in an Israeli hospital using Israeli citizens as shields would you be as flippantly forgiving of the IDF carpet bombing that area or their snipers shooting the Israeli children?

@measuringmylifeincoffeespoons even if you believe the 'human shields' rhetoric - which even the BBC has proven to be false on many occasions where Israel has claimed this (such as using it as an excuse to attack hospitals)

• how does bombing the places where the hostages are held, help the hostages?

• why is israel prepared to sacrifice it's own citizens and ignoring their families calling for a ceasefire and rescue instead?

YABVU not to enable voting. I’d like to vote YABU.

I'd like to know more about this strategy and how its working out for them.

Is starving people part of it? Denying access to water and medical supplies? Bombing hospitals and deliberately shooting children and aid workers?

I reckon this 'strategy' needs a bit of work.

You’ve summed up my own thoughts on this entirely, @ArcticOwl

Thanks also to @measuringmylifeincoffeespoons - you’ll absolutely take some huge flack for your post but there’s some very valuable responses on this thread and I hope that some have learned from it

I was raised by a German Jewish father who spent four years in two concentration camps. I have many thoughts, day and night, on this current genocide on the Palestinian people. Trust me when I tell you I’m the polar opposite of ignorant.

I think if you were in Gaza right now seeing the massacre of thousands of Palestinians by the monstrous Israeli government you would feel differently. Unless you are a psychopath. Easy to type cold trite comments from behind a keyboard in a safe (for now) country.

Anyone d we go still believes Israel has stolen land from Palestinians is simply showing they have zero understanding of the history, recent or otherwise of the area.

and anyone who also still believes this terrorise activity by hamas is also about land us also mistaken. Its about ideology and part of the sane one as Isis, Hezbollah, taliban- it wants the destruction of a free world.

Israel is the only state in the region that provides equal rights for all citizens, men, women, gay, straight, Arabs, Jews, Muslims - and the west should be supporting it and condemning hamas

Israel has and uses a strategy to mitigate the impact on civilians. That alone belies the suggestion that it is engaged in genocide - the deliberate targeting of civilians with an attempt to destroy them.

reports today allegedly from an unidentified IDF member says they use AI algorithms that have a built in ‘wastage’ to identify targets. To be clear that ‘wastage’ is people in the area of their identified target. The word ‘identified’ is also used very loosely.

I wouldn’t usually repeat so many ‘allegedly’s’ but the former Israeli diplomat I heard speak of this said that the he held the reporter who published the report in high regard so he had to hope that this was an unusual misstep by her and it wasn’t true.

Because Hamas uses civilians as shields.

Yeah this defence has got a bit old now. It might have ‘worked’ in Nov 23 as an argument but more and more people are seeing this for the flimsy excuse for a massacre that it is.

@BonzoGates What you have in Palestine is a terrorist group as government.

The terrorist group being the Israeli Defense Force who over the last 75 years have, quite literally, wiped Palestine of the map. What was once Palestine is now Israel.

And btw hamas m, instead of protecting its people, building infrastructure, providing water etc, have done none of that since ruling since 2005. They’ve stolen bns of $ and not put it to good use to support their people. Instead, throwing data of buildings, and denying any basic human rights at all.

SerenitynowInsanitylater (apt user name - I think the insanity time has come)

My grandfather spent time in concentration camps and much of his family were killed in the holocaust - so please don't think you can win the argument by simply referring to that.

My criticism of you as ignorant related to the fact that you dismissed my posts on a difficult, complex, emotive subject as being "on the Kool aid" - that is ignorant.

I fully stand by my comment.

There never ever in history has been a ‘Palestine’.

I agree.

whatever one thinks of Israels’s response in Palestine, the IRA comparison does not stand up.

I lived through the IRA bombs, they tried to murder that fathers of my classmates whilst I was in junior school. But the IRA did not do to British civilians what Hamas did to Israeli citizens on October 7th. That was a glorification in torture and murder and rape and infanticide unlike anything the IRA did. The deliberate cruelty and brutality on Oct 7th off the scale. And it was done deliberately and knowingly to provoke an attack in Palestine. It’s inconceivable the Hamas did not realise this.

I wonder how much food the hostages are getting. If people in Gaza are surviving on 240 calories a day how much are they sparing for the hostages? If my loved one was one of the hostages I'd be furious with Netanyahu and demanding he sit down and negotiate.

It's very difficult. I broadly support Israel. I also feel absolutely sick to my stomach to see Palestinian children hungry and injured.

One thing I don't understand though is the issue of displaced people is not unique to that part of the world. There are places all over the world including Europe where people have been displaced and borders redrawn. I mean look at Cyprus. There is peace there.