To think that the blame lies with Hamas and Israel deserves our support

[measuringmylifeincoffeespoons]

Of course, the deaths of the aid workers recently is a terrible tragedy and it is entirely right that Israel is investigating why it happened and holding members of the IDF responsible.

However, the criticism of Israel seems to miss a fundamentally important point which is that Israel is engaged in military operations in Gaza for one reason only: the barbaric terrorist attacks that were committed by Hamas on 7 October and their continued imprisonment of Israel citizens as hostages.

Of course, the deaths of the aid workers is a tragedy. Every civilian death that occurs in a war is a tragedy. But the reality is that that is what happens in a war, and Hamas is responsible for the fact that there is a war.

The war can be ended, and billions of dollars of aid can be released into Gaza, very simply. Hamas simply needs to lay down its arms and release the Israeli citizens that it has taken hostage and continues to keep imprisoned.

Unless and until Hamas do that, the state of Israel deserves our continuing support in its battle against a brutal terrorist organisation that has kidnapped the innocent civilians of a democratic state.

Two wrongs don’t make a right. Both sides are as bad as each other to a point, but how anyone can justify what is clearly geoncide I don’t know.

I agree with you, OP.

Horrific things happen in war - that is undeniable - but I can't remember any other time that the victims of aggression have been condemned like Israel. The attacks of 7th October were extreme in their utter barbarity - hostages are still being held - and yet, Israel are the ones being vilified? It defies belief.

You know what happens in war? War crimes.

Israel is a sovereign state, one that has signed up to internationally agreed rules of war. Their retaliation has gone far past proportional, damaging their own opportunities for diplomacy in their region and increasingly with the west.

Israel is held to higher standards than Hamas precisely because they’ve agreed to international conventions and fostered western relationships on those foundations. If they want to be judged by the same parameters as Hamas they need to formally rescind their international agreements.

what Hamas did on 07/10 was horrific and disgusting. What Isreal are doing is horrific and disgusting.

Jewish people have been instrumental in educating the west about the horrors inflicted in WWII, so much so that many recognise what they’re seeing regardless of the label put on the enemy.

YABU

Do you think Palestine would continue to exist if Hamas surrendered tomorrow? Do you care if it doesn't?

I’m Irish and in the not too distant past a terrorist organisation with my country’s flag wrapped around them and proporting to represent us committed acts of atrocity against innocent UK citizens. Had the UK taken what you consider to be the reasonable response that Israel have I could well not be here today.
But that would never have happened because it is not reasonable to attack a whole population, to starve them, deny them water and medical care and systematically murder them. The rest of the world including the US would not have stood by and let the UK react like that to Ireland on the back of an IRA attack. But the Palestinians have been so dehumanised internationally that it is somehow acceptable to a significant amount of people. It’s mind boggling.

Have you heard the unprecedented protests against Netenyahu in Israel? Many Israelis don't like children and women and men being mutilated and bombed in their name believe it or not

Yep x2.

You might not be doing Hamas many favours with your method of support.

It certainly seems that Palestine had a vast subterranean network ready for a siege

I agree with a lot of what @KTheGrey said, except this. Hamas has a vast subterranean network. It hasn’t benefitted the Palestinian civilians. Hamas has called over the Israeli bombs and let the civilians be bombed to shit whilst they cower in their tunnels. They are despicable.

Legitimate government of Palestine, my arse. Governments don’t do this to their own people.

It's genocide. Give your head a wobble. Please.

"As I have detailed above"?

Could you sound any more pompous? Are you an expert on the historic complexities of the Middle East, its ancient cultures, its status as the birthplace of three major world religions with the many many associated implications, its more recent history of being a pawn in European empire building?

"As I have detailed above" indeed. You're not writing a sixth form essay.

OP we would all love to be able to reduce the current situation to a black and white issue that could be solved if only the war mongering ideological men came to their senses. But sadly that's not possible.

This 💯

The IRA never put the Irish up as cannon fodder.

Taking aside the horrendous oversimplification of the 'war' in the OP -

If Israel cared about the Israeli citizens who were kidnapped, why does it keep bombing the place where those citizens will be, along with starving them to death? Gaza is geographically such a small area, there is no way they could be killing Palestinians without also killing the hostages they are claiming to want back.

Or Israeli snipers could stop shooting children?
Or Israel could stop deliberately killing aid workers?
Or Israel could stop deliberately causing a famine to kill off those who they haven't bombed yet?
Or Israel could stop killing their own hostages because they're so used to shooting civilians waving white flags?

They could do it today. Why aren't they?

And where do you stand in the IRA?

I am certainly not attempting to reduce this to a black and white situation. I fully acknowledge the multiple complexities.

But "as I have detailed above" the reality is that civilian deaths occur in the context of a war, and "as I have detailed above " Hamas is responsible for the fact that there is a war because of its actions on 7 October.

Israel has and uses a strategy to mitigate the impact on civilians. That alone belies the suggestion that it is engaged in genocide - the deliberate targeting of civilians with an attempt to destroy them.

Israel has only existed since 1948 and only exists due to the colonisation of Palestine and effective expulsion of Palestinians from their historic homeland. Israel has been and continues to ethnically cleanse Palestine of Palestinians.

The horrific deads on October 7 by Hamas gave Netanyahu the excuse he was looking for to destroy Gaza.

It's a shit show, and the last 6 months have ensured that it will remain shit show for another 60 years with Palestinians at the wrong end of a very shitty stick.

Because Hamas uses civilians as shields.

My understanding is that a change of leader would have little effect on the public opinion of their war response. Netanyahu has fostered a long list that the electorate have huge problems with, the way he is handling Hamas isn’t necessarily top of that list. Many might be protesting against the war but that isn’t the driver of the protests. They want an election and Netanyahu out, but that doesn’t mean that a leader continuing the war wouldn’t be popular.

My understanding is largely informed by an interview with a former Israeli diplomat.

@Seeingadistance what is your response to the many arguments here alone against your position?

You seem to be unclear as to what genocide is, so I’ll leave this here for you.

Actually, maybe you’re not:

There cannot be peace in the Middle East while Hamas remains next door. Israel cannot live next door to a state run by Hamas that wants to destroy it.

Yes, this is what I and most people I know feel.

To kill one child would be unthinkable in response to anything, to kill thousands and still justifying it, is something incomprehensible to most people. How you all think this is a reasonable response is beyond me.

I'm Irish too and the Irish Government did not support the IRA so the comparison is a complete fallacy. The IRA didn't recognise the Irish State. What you have in Palestine is a terrorist group as government.

Innocent Palestinians are just collateral damage to you aren't they.

If Hamas are indeed using civilians as 'cannon fodder ' then the Israeli government should be using everything in their, very advanced, military and technological power to avoid killing them. Why aren't they?