To think that the blame lies with Hamas and Israel deserves our support

[measuringmylifeincoffeespoons]

Of course, the deaths of the aid workers recently is a terrible tragedy and it is entirely right that Israel is investigating why it happened and holding members of the IDF responsible.

However, the criticism of Israel seems to miss a fundamentally important point which is that Israel is engaged in military operations in Gaza for one reason only: the barbaric terrorist attacks that were committed by Hamas on 7 October and their continued imprisonment of Israel citizens as hostages.

Of course, the deaths of the aid workers is a tragedy. Every civilian death that occurs in a war is a tragedy. But the reality is that that is what happens in a war, and Hamas is responsible for the fact that there is a war.

The war can be ended, and billions of dollars of aid can be released into Gaza, very simply. Hamas simply needs to lay down its arms and release the Israeli citizens that it has taken hostage and continues to keep imprisoned.

Unless and until Hamas do that, the state of Israel deserves our continuing support in its battle against a brutal terrorist organisation that has kidnapped the innocent civilians of a democratic state.

Do you know any of us to know whether posters celebrated what happened on 7-10?

That’s alright let’s not call it genocide. Let’s say 40k killed by Israel and nearly 80k injured / disappeared. And those still alive being starved to death. Are you happier with this definition

I said the terrorists celebrated. I hope that posters didn't.

Much happier with "40k killed and nearly 80k injured in a war between Israel and Hamas, started by Hamas." Thanks.

Also OK with:
"Aid disrupted which has resulted in widespread famine. Israel's intentions are unclear whether intentional or simply not assigning sufficient importance - either way, not acceptable."

Yes, I was (and still am) balanced. As all decent human beings should be. I agree, as much as you do, that the events of October 7th were totally and utterly horrific. Especially, as a woman, the crimes you list, that I can't even bear to write down, as I'm so horrified by them. Look back on my old posts and you'll see this.
I also was horrified by the actions of the IDF in response, especially regarding innocent children.
The two things are not mutually exclusive. Both Israelis and Palestinians are human beings. I feel equally sorry for every individual who has suffered as a result of the terrible situation there.
I disagree that genocide is used as a weapon. Maybe by some people. But, we can all see what's going on. The vast majority of Palestinians currently suffering utter horror at the moment are not members of Hamas.
Absolutely nothing justifies what Hamas did on October 7th; and absolutely nothing justifies what Israel is doing now.

The thing that depresses me so much about this discussion on Mumsnet is that one side or other try to shame anyone who dares express compassion for 'the other side'. As though sympathy for Israelis on October 7th means you don't care about the plight of Palestinians; and sympathy expressed for Gazans now is greeted with angry shouts about events on October 7th, as though the those expressing sympathy for Palestinians somehow aren't just as horrified by the devastation that day.

For this reason I rarely post on this board. You can't say anything without it being pounced on.

I'm on the side of peace, equality etc. Anti-Semitism is morally repugnant, as is violence, especially sexual violence. Ethnic cleansing, collective punishment and genocide are also morally repugnant.

Yes, I'm balanced. As we should all be.

@statsfun In fact, I'd possibly go further, and say that many of the people most upset by October 7th are also the most upset about the plight of Palestinians in Gaza now. I felt sickened and horrified thinking about those poor hostages and other victims on October 7th.
I feel sickened and horrified thinking about innocents in Gaza - homeless, injured, bereft, hungry... now.

I don't think I'm a morally better person than those unaffected. Just more sensitive and less able to compartmentalise or block things out than some people. News stories and world events get under my skin, and I can't block them out easily.

Both Hamas and the IDF are guilty of horrific war crimes.

Innocents in Israel on October 7th and in Gaza constantly since are both worthy of our compassion.

Without doubt what Israel's government is doing now is reprehensible. But, I certainly don't blame all ordinary Israeli civilians.

I remember the celebrations of some people on the UK and around the world after 7th October 2023, with disgust. Did they think Israel would do nothing.

Many could live in Israel but living under the regimes in Gaza, Iran no thanks. Prodominenly one religion, women second class citizens, almost covered head to toe in case a poor man being tempted, obviously would be the fault of the woman. Women stoned in Iran for removing hijabs. Sad. Feels like the middle ages.

Edited to say who celebrated

Unfortunately for the Palestian people they are governed by terrorists who NEVER want a peaceful solution to the conflict. This is the fundamental problem with a peace settlement when ideology over rules rationality.
It is important to remember how the creation of Israel came into being and how migration increased after the holocaust.

This is a very objective view of the current situation.

How any one can defend a terrorist group who have continually blown themsrlves up to kill innocent Israeli citizens is beyond me. There is hatred from both sides but the Palestian people are victims of Hamas not Israel.
Had there been a peaceful two state solution decades ago it could be argued that Israrel would not have increased their borders to protect itself further.

It is far too simple to look at this with the view of Israel the aggressor and Palestine as victim. Hamas do not give a damn about its population - THAT is clear from the civilian casualties they could have choosen to protect.

There is hatred from both sides but the Palestian people are victims of Hamas not Israel.

is it Hamas the one that is detaining Palestinians and putting them in prisons without a fair court (or even a judging them?)
is it Hamas who is allowing settlers?
is it Hamas who is burying them alive and torturing them?
is it Hamas who is targeting them?
is it Hamas who is not allowing aid going in?
is it Hamas who is killing doctors and aid workers?
Do you think Israel government gives a damm about Palestinians ?

ps. Do you think Israel government gives a damm about hostages and/ Israel citizens ?

What do you hope to achieve by highlighting all the things that Hamas, in your opinion, hasn't done rather than focusing on the atrocities they HAVE committed, against both Israeli and Palestinian citizens? For us to feel sympathy for a terrorist group? For people to say, oh yes, You're right, they're not actually that bad afterall...? Please revisit your list, because it's grossly offensive.

This is a horrible brutal war in a populated area and there are civilian casualties. However it is not genicide. Genocide is the systematic and deliberate murdering of innocents purely because of ethnicity and the intent is to destroy a people absolutely. We saw that with the Holocaust, Rwanda and elsewhere but this war simply does not fit that defintion.

By weaponising genocide you allow the IDF and the Israeli people.to be smeared as inhuman which is simply not the case and is indeed anti semitic. It could be argued that October 7th was a genocide that was prevented by the IDF as it was purely an operation to kill and torture innocents in the most brutal form posible.

There was an interview on the BBC with Israeli students that has fought in Gaza and their reasons for doing so was protection of their country and to ensure October 7th could never be repeated. The soldiers knew of those that died on October 7th.

Gaza is an active combat zone and we need more footage of Hamas operations against the IDF in my opinion to offset the false narrative of genocide. Brutal war yes, genocide no.

No. For you to recognise that indeed Israel’s actions are as bad as Hamas and Palestinian citizens are suffering because both of them

So because you don't understand what genocide actually is we are all anti-semitic (as is the ICJ presumably for entertaining the matter) for pointing out that Israel is/may be committing genocide?

This is such a nonsensical take.

At this stage of the conflict posts like this are hard to stomach.

However it is not genocide.
Think I will wait for the ICJ to decide whether it is genocide or not, the fact you can categorically state it isn't shows how closed you are to the fact that it might be. Many countries legal teams have investigated the evidence and have agreed with SA that there is a case to answer. What evidence have you investigated to be so sure it isn't?

By weaponising genocide you allow the IDF and the Israeli people.to be smeared as inhuman which is simply not the case and is indeed anti semitic.
It is not ant--semitic to support an investigation by the ICJ for genocide. Where have people called Israeli people inhuman? I do think though that some of the actions of the IDF towards Palestinians is inhuman and disgusting.

Gaza is an active combat zone and we need more footage of Hamas operations against the IDF in my opinion to offset the false narrative of genocide.
Israeli government have denied journalists access to Gaza so maybe take it up with them if you think there is a false narrative being portrayed they are controlling the narrative, and also a lot of footage we get to see is from IDF and their tictocs and insta posts again take it up with them if you don't like the narrative it is portraying.

Brutal war yes, genocide no.
Again I will wait for the ICJ to rule on whether it is or not. You, as I, have no way of coming to that conclusion

AI-guided weapons target family homes.
Snipers target children and vulnerable civilians.
Healthcare services are disproportionately targeted and doctors are executed, while patients are left to die.
Agriculture, food industry and education/culture have been destroyed.
Essential supplies of food, sanitation equipment and healthcare equipment are prevented from reaching the people who need them to live.
Statements such as "We need to see more rivers of [their] blood" are shown on mainstream media as acceptable viewpoints on actions towards people.
Soldiers shoot unarmed elderly people in their homes.
People are run over by tanks and bulldozers.
People are shot at as they try to reach aid.
People have reported torture in detention.
Tens of thousands of people are dead within a 6 month period.

The people in question have nowhere to go. They cannot evacuate. Of the 4 sides of their territory, three are land borders which they cannot cross and one is the sea, which is also under blockade and even if it weren't, there aren't boats to facilitate an evacuation (which would then just be a fleet of small boats sailing out into the Mediterranean... and we all know how well that goes for people).

Meanwhile, in a separate territory, people live under occupation. That means...
Armed men drive them from their homes, facilitated and assisted by the occupying power's military.
People's homes, cars and land are burned out.
Children are shot as they sit in their parents' cars or walk home from school.
People are arbitrarily placed under lockdown, prevented from walking down certain streets, using certain facilities, even leaving their homes.
People are held in detention by the occupying power for years before being tried in military courts - with multiple reports of torture and sexual violence, including rape.

Regardless of who is doing these things, these things are wrong. If you can look at these things happening and think "well, it's not that bad" or "but they probably deserved it" or "I still think the ICJ is overreacting", then maybe challenge yourself to think how you would feel if these things were happening to your people, in your country. If these things wouldn't be ok to happen to you and your loved ones, then it shouldn't be ok for them to happen to other people and their loved ones.

@mids2019 if you feel a false narrative is being presented coming out of Gaza, then perhaps you could feedback to the soldiers posting their potential war crimes on social media that they should consider posting less incriminating content and maybe let independent journalists into the conflict zone.

This.

It always feels like you are excusing and redirecting blame to Israel.

A terrorist organisation attacking, raping, kidnapping.
A democratic country defending itself.

Nope. If you’ve read my comments I always blame both. I always say they’re as bad as each other and that they don’t have Palestine and Israel’s best interest in mind. Not everyone says that and justifies one side and I’ll challenge it

This.

People defending Hamas. 🙄 the victims

For defending yourself do you have to “kidnap” (there is nearly 10k Palestinians in prison that have not had a fair court or even one) , torture , rape and kill others ? Is that how you defend a democratic country?

this is the problem, I recognise that Hamas and Israel are as bad as each other. Whilst you minimise and ignore what Israel’s government is doing to innocent Palestinians.

So a country defending itself is as bad as Hamas. You blame both, you said 'they're as bad as each other.' There you go terrorists are equivalent in your words to a country defending itself.

Can you point out where someone has defended Hamas?