To think that the blame lies with Hamas and Israel deserves our support

[measuringmylifeincoffeespoons]

Of course, the deaths of the aid workers recently is a terrible tragedy and it is entirely right that Israel is investigating why it happened and holding members of the IDF responsible.

However, the criticism of Israel seems to miss a fundamentally important point which is that Israel is engaged in military operations in Gaza for one reason only: the barbaric terrorist attacks that were committed by Hamas on 7 October and their continued imprisonment of Israel citizens as hostages.

Of course, the deaths of the aid workers is a tragedy. Every civilian death that occurs in a war is a tragedy. But the reality is that that is what happens in a war, and Hamas is responsible for the fact that there is a war.

The war can be ended, and billions of dollars of aid can be released into Gaza, very simply. Hamas simply needs to lay down its arms and release the Israeli citizens that it has taken hostage and continues to keep imprisoned.

Unless and until Hamas do that, the state of Israel deserves our continuing support in its battle against a brutal terrorist organisation that has kidnapped the innocent civilians of a democratic state.

So what?

Hamas are shit, evil, vile. Most people agree with that.

What they don't agree with is genocide. The people being killed are mostly not Hamas.

Pointing at Hamas and saying they're just as bad is absolutely no defence for Israel's actions against innocent people

I feel like the animals looking in through the window at the end of Animal Farm. I look at Hamas and the Israeli government and I can no longer tell the difference.

‘There is a theory that the October 7 atrocities were intended to provoke the war that followed’

no shit,Sherlock. Like the IRA started bombing in England because no one gave a stuff when they didn’t in Ireland? For attention? To provoke?
Worked then too didn’t it?

Well I think what Oct 7th shows was that Hamas had decided that the civilians had outlived their use as shields, and could instead be used as martyrs. Not that they bothered having a referendum to find out whether the civilians were happy with that change in their utility.

And although the U.K. government have behaved appallingly in NI on many fronts, at least they don’t decide that decimating the entire population was the answer.

You should have switched on voting OP. I'm not wasting my time explaining anything to you.

Do you think when a trained sniper shoots 4 year old boy through the head he believed they were Hamas militants and it was a mistake? Really? 🤔
Isreal aren't even claiming that btw!

Have you not heard or seen interviews with Israeli military leaders? They’ve not been shy of sharing their goals and is complete destruction of the Palestinian people. The aim is that there is nobody left to rise up in the future.

it’s pointless anyway because Hamas exist beyond the borders of Palestine and they are provoking largely religious sympathisers in a region where they are ridiculously outnumbered.

People like to point at Iran, which is 100% valid, but Isreal isn’t saying boo to them despite it clearly holding the heart of Hamas. I don’t know what they expect to happen if they achieve their aim of retaking the Gaza Strip, it seems perfectly clear to me that they’re making things immeasurably worse whilst losing a lot of support.

I’m not trying to win anything OP.
My head is in my hands for those who perished on October 7th and those who continue to perish in Gaza. My father told me two things in life: Be at home in the world and Your life is not of more value than the next person’s.
I live by those words. I try to live in truth rather than win arguments. The truth is there’s a genocide in Gaza. It is wrong.

I lost my father’s whole family to the Holocaust. So, I leave you with Lemn Sissay’s words: “We have more in common than sets us apart.” These words apply to you and me, OP as much as they apply to the Palestinian people and Israeli Jewish people.

Hamas are as hideous as the Israeli government. I won’t excuse what they did. But the murderer Netanyahu is using the ‘shield’ trope now to destroy Palestine and achieve the power he wants, whilst pretending that all civilian deaths are all due to that shield. Nothing to do with the IDF monsters, nope!

The IRA used a whole system of safe houses to hide their people and weapons in both the Republic and the North often in densely populated areas. Had the UK wanted to apply similar logic to Israel they could have attacked those areas on the premise of the IRA hiding there

Have you not heard or seen interviews with Israeli military leaders? They’ve not been shy of sharing their goals and is complete destruction of the Palestinian people

Then why haven't they? I'm pretty sure they have the military capability.

Yes I agree op.

This. War is tragic. Civilians are always the ones who lose. But the majority of these comments simply do not understand what war is. They are, in essence, condemning the suffering of all life, but somehow failing to condemn the actions of Hamas. The underlying anti-semitism should be clear, but somehow it isn’t.

Thank you. I agree with many of the sentiments of that post although I respectfully disagree that Israel is engaged in genocide for the reasons I have explained.

As I say, my objection was to you characterising my posts as being "on the Kool aid".

Absolutely right op. We never saw any pro Isis marches even when the uk was a part of a coalition bombing them in Iraq. We treat israel differently from every other country and we all know why

There’s a reasonable discussion to be had about Israeli response and what could change it, certainly. But you won’t get it here and you won’t get it generally.

The trouble is that so many who are vocally anti-Israel are antisemitic.

Israel doesn’t respond to attacks on it as most other countries would because it fears for its existence as the - single - Jewish state and homeland. It’s not difficult to understand why that might be.

You know this how?

At least we moved away from every criticism of the Israeli government being deemed anti-Semitic.

Hamas are defined as terrorists by western governments. Western countries also refer to people as “intrepid explorers rather than land invading colonists. The label you use depends on which side you are on but it doesn’t mean the label is correct.

The Israel government have said it will not stop until Hamas are wiped out. Even if Hamas lay down their arms and give up the hostages, the Israel Government will not stop because it wants to eradicate Hamas.

The thing is, they’ve made the conditions for extremism so Hamas will never be gone. Maybe Hamas itself will cease to exist but it will just be replaced by a new organisation with the same values and a different name. This is generational trauma on top of current trauma, you can’t move past that. There will be a large number of Palestinians who have heard stories from their grandparents that they were kicked out of their houses by the Israeli government, they lost their farms and their livelihoods. These people will now have seen their home bombed. Perhaps they’ve seen their father carry their mother’s lifeless body and bury in a mass grave, along with countless other mothers, fathers, siblings, children. Maybe they also saw their father bury their baby sibling. Their other sibling had been horrifically maimed and needed live saving surgery without medical supplies. Now you’re in a refugee camp, starving and all around you people are dying from infection and starvation. Your friends, your neighbours have all suffered a similar fate. How do you grow up (if you are allowed to actually survive) and not hate the Israeli government? So when an organisation claims it can restore to Palestine to its former glory, it’s tempting to join and punish Israel like they have punished you and your family.

The Israeli government knows this and so this is why they are committing genocide against the nation of Palestine. Or anyone trying to help the citizens of Palestine.

OP, your whole premise is that retaliation is fair game and nobody disagrees that retaliation was expected. However, the proportionality of the retaliation is not expected and what people are horrified about. The Israeli government are ignoring the rules of war (which in most incidents would result in them being labelled terrorists). They are attacking aid workers. They are depriving citizens food and water, a basic human right. The Israeli military is one of the best in the world in terms of personnel, training, funding and technology. Over 90% of casualties are civilians. With one of the world’s best militaries. I’m going to say that again - over 90% of casualties are civilians with one of the world’s best militaries. The Israeli government could mitigate civilian life significantly more than they are, they could allow food and water into civilians, they could allow medical supplies in, they could not murder aid workers. They have the means to do all of that but they are choosing not to. How is that anything other genocide?

Very well put

Charlie Haughey and Cos gun running in the 70s would suggest some government support for the IRA enough to give UK grounds similar to Israel had they been psychotic enough to want to use it.
SF did not run political candidate for elections in the Republic during the time but they did in the North where they were elected as MPs in nationalist areas so again some premise that UK could have used.
my point is powerful countries can come up with justifications if they need to for themselves and the people blindly willing to support unconscionable actions.

I believe if what was happening to the Palestinians was being done by another Muslim country rather than Israel, the world would barely know about it or even care. It would be a tiny segment on the news and people would say how sad and forget about it... Like the Uyghur Muslims in china or the civil war in Sudan and Yemen.

There is not a single interview from any news source where Israeli military leaders have ever said they even wish for, never mind are aiming for, “the complete destruction of the Palestinian people”. If they wanted to do that, that would have been done already. In fact the current Gaza war has a very low civilian casualty rate and spend huge resources directing civilians to safety.

I agree with this.