What is going on on the left? Gaza/Israel conflict

[Notsuretoputit]

I am left wing, I wouldn’t consider myself anything other. I absolutely support Israel, have no problem understanding and supporting Zionism, and am absolutely horrified by the rising levels of anti-semitism in the UK.

It is to my despair that much of that anti-semitism is being perpetrated by those on the left. People I like, consider friends, who are tolerant and who I would never, ever have considered racist or anti-Semitic are plastering their Facebook walls with pro-Hamas TikTok propaganda. These are not teenagers naively believing propaganda, these are people who’ve spend years active in (left wing) politics.

I’ve read a lot in recent weeks about the far left’s historical problem with anti-semitism, but how can it be that nice, friendly, socially conscious people are indulging in this insane display of anti-semitism? Actively showing support for a terrorist organisation? Refusing to believe Hamas is guilty of any crimes, or that they have an excellent propaganda machine currently in operation. What is going on?

And yet answers like this are why many on the left (in most parties) are against what Israel are currently doing.

Its never as simple as left bad because they don't support Israel

@Parkingt111 no he has always seen the entirety of that land as Israel

Considering the censorship of the river to the sea chant and its apparent call for a genocide. I wonder whether Netanyahus sons version of 'From the river to the sea, this flag 🇮🇱 is all you'll see' will bring the same damnation

https://www.instagram.com/yair_netanyahu/?hl=en

It is a historicly right wing country that has now moved into an extremist right wing government.
They need to rid Netanyahu before he turns Israel into a dictatorship. I am glad to see the court case into his corruption, fraud and bribery charges are continuing.

@Notsuretoputit sorry il stop too.
To answer your question im not sure where I consider myself in politics. Growing up we would always vote Labour as we were/are working class and labour was seen as the party who were most representative of that although I'm not so sure now
In terms of anti-semitism then I have seen some anti-semitic posts on social media. I don't know if these people align themselves to the left.

I think it's easier to spot on social media because there isn't as much regulation, especially in comments under posts. Unless the person posting goes through all the comments and deletes all the offensive ones themselves

Actually, looking at the headlines, most countries are against what Israel is doing. Full stop. Left and right.

Despite this, Israel vows today to continue.

I am left wing. I said that in the OP. I have also seen multiple examples an antisemitism from friends and colleagues on the left in recent years. Continuously explaining your view on the conflict isn’t relevant.

Where did I stop it being a discussion about the left? I'm more than happy to talk about that.

In fact I think I said I wanted to hear your thoughts on Starmer

I don’t care what you want. Start your own thread if you want people’s views on Starmer,

Offer your opinion of why not if the left has a problem with antisemitism or leave the thread so those of us who do want to discuss it can.

@AdamRyan if I was being kind I would say you shut down and manipulate any discussion when it's not going where you want it too.

Your last statement being a good example....

I think I derailed it too by bouncing off the walls the other night OP, sorry about that.

Do you think it boils down to something as simple as the left automatically feeling antipathy towards Israel because of the right-wing government there?

I sort of don't, because if it were just that, you'd still find some compassion about 7 Oct instead of people passing it off as an "excuse" (!!!) for Israel to pursue its evil goals.

So the "read all posts" function has been pretty helpful here. I hadn't fully realised that you were taking it as read that "the left" is antisemitic and you wanted to discuss how that antisemitism took root.

I'd argue Keir Starmer isn't antisemitic and doesn't tolerate it in his party. And I'd argue that many many left wing and centre left voters aren't either. So I still want to know who you mean by "the left" and what you are hoping to achieve here?

I wouldn't have a clue why some left wing people are anti semitic, I also think anti semitism is not solely a left wing issue.

I also think there is a problem at the moment with people being accused of antisemitism when they aren't antisemitic. Today's episode of "The Rest is Politics" does a much better job of explaining how that could be than I can and I don't want to even try because, in a catch 22, as soon as I do I'll get called vile, derailing, goady, antisemitic etc.

If you want to explain what you mean by "the left" and why you think its antisemitic, maybe we can discuss it?

I don’t care what you want to know. You haven’t got a clue why. Great. No need to contribute further.

If I was being kind I'd say maybe you don't mean to come across as a bully, but you do. I've posted in good faith, just because you have a different political persuasion to me there is no need to call me manipulative.

Happy to talk to you if you have something to say that isn't just bollocks about my "derailing".

I don’t think it can be that, because antisemitism has been prevalent on the left long before Israel’s right wing government and well before Israel was even created.

It seems to shapeshift and this is the latest iteration, but it’s been there for centuries. I read a good article about it today, I’ll try and find it.

Great, bye.

You aren't being clear though. People can't contribute if you don't engage. It feels like you want a particular answer and anything else won't do.

Alternatively it could be you want to fill the thread up now, I've noticed that often happens when threads get to this stage. Maybe you want the discussion about Netanyahu and lack of Israeli government support for a two state solution to drop off the board?

@AdamRyan which might be true if I wasn't the only one who 'saw' you.
On threads about sexual violence
On threads about the left.
With your faux naivety... please explain this to me?

I am not the one being called out REPEATEDLY. You are.
So to refer to me as a bully is laughable. A smear even.

@AdamRyan once again another attempt to 'guide' the thread.

Having a clique of posters insisting on "calling me out", and calling me things like vile, misogynistic, narcissistic, a man, goady, a derailed, a labour party plant, a CCHQ plant, a bot, a troll etc is the absolute definition of bullying. And I won't be bullied, either irl on on here.

Me having a different political position to you and a different perspective is not "manipulation" or "derailing" and the fact you think it is just shows how much of an echo chamber you want to be in.

Anyway, this is a pretty interesting and relevant article:

By conflating Judaism and Israel, the Israeli government created a paradox in which Israel’s actions are beyond critique. The irony is that Zionism and antisemitism are each other's best recruiting tools.

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/how-jews-can-support-palestinian-rights-condemn-antisemitism-ncna1268680

Written by a Jew who has lived in Israel.

Stop replying then, ffs.

When did Israel have a left wing government? Genuinely asking, I googled and from what I can see it has always been right wing with varying intensity

An important subject but sadly can’t be discussed without derailing

What do you mean by left wing and what have you seen?

I’d consider myself fairly left. I believe in a more equal just society.

I’ve supported campaigns for gay marriage, abortion rights, anti racism and anti various wars.

i also stand with ordinary Palestinian citizens. This isn’t a war it’s an attack on 2 million people with no planes or security systems who are penned into a small area with little food and water. I’m horrified that the EU, Uk and US have all supported Israel while they blatantly disregard international law. Even they are starting to point out that these actions won’t destroy Hamas! It makes me feel that it is more important to speak out and say no not in my name - I don’t support this.

is this the kind of thing you see as anti semitic or is it something else?

@Parkingt111 Can I ask - when you say you've seen some on social media, do you think it's the more 'I hate Jews' explicit antisemitism or a bit more of the coded, subtle antisemitism? I'm only asking because you've engaged so respectfully over the last few months with Jewish posters when we've been discussing it, and was wondering if some of the stuff you're picking up on is a result of chats on MN, which you may not have picked up on before, say pre 7/10?

@AdamRyan that sounds awful. You should definitely report that. Shows the strength of feeling though. I don't think you can equate any of those names to me though...