To be horrified re the 2000+ children killed in Gaza.

[SoShallINever]

The news tonight was unbearable.
I am sickened that the West is not calling for a ceasefire or some restraint.
I found out today that Gaza is almost exactly the same size as the small Hebridean island of Jura. But whereas Jura has a few hundred residents, Gaza has 2.4 million packed in. You couldn't throw a stone into Gaza without it hitting someone, never mind a missile.
The children of Gaza are not terrorists and I wish Israel would stop.

@Weonlyhavealoanofit

'it is a human rights issue and it started years before the dreadful murders of the 6/7 October. Before that weekend, one population has been dispossessed of its lands, and moved either into miserably overcrowded ‘refugee camps’ or marooned into a ghetto '

This is what makes me pessimistic. The persistent, widespread and total refusal to discuss what happened before 1948 because it doesn't fit the narrative.

@Weonlyhavealoanofit
Astute and depressing.

@Milkandhoneybees
Agree.

But you’re still minimising what Hamas did. They are a proscribed terrorist organisation. Stop calling them ‘criminals.’ The guy who robs your local Tesco is a criminal. Until you can say that Hamas are terrorists you are minimising their actions.

And yes, before anyone piles on me - it is possible to wholeheartedly agree they are terrorists (as designated by whole swaths or western countries) and still think Israel has gone too far.

But aren't you doing the same? You're also refusing to even give some validity to anything before 7/10, ascribing everything that has happened in the region as the Palestinians doing and somehow manage to bring the word dhimmi into every post.

I will state at the outset, although it should go without saying, that the atrocities carried out by Hamas on Oct 7 against Jewish people are indefensible.

There was a very interesting interview on the Today programme on R4 this morning. It was with a member of the extreme religious-nationalist ‘Hilltop Youth’ settlers in the West Bank, who have established outposts illegally, but with the tacit support of the Israeli government, with the express purpose of expelling Palestinians from what the settlers regard as Israel, by stealing their land, damaging crops etc. This is in addition to official government endorsed land grabbing.

At the end of the interview during which his Palestinian neighbours (N.B. not Hamas - this is the West Bank) were described as Nazis and beasts, the settler hoped that the weapons he and others carried for self-defence would soon be used for attack, and finished by saying
‘I hope now we’ll be able to get rid of them (the ‘Arabs’) from the river to the sea’.

It’s a revelatory listen - approx 2h30m in to the programme.
Also highlighted in the piece are the violent Israeli night time raids and military operations, arrests and killings in the West Bank.

Context is everything, and things rarely do happen in a vacuum.

I'm not sure what it means to give things that have happened validity or otherwise. The person I was responding to 'gives validity to' anything that Israel did, or allegedly did, since 1948 only. As you know, I've never ascribed everything that has happened in the region to 'the Palestinian's doing'. That would really be bizarre.

Some people seem to really hate other people learning what a dhimmi was. Is it just the sound of the word you don't like? Would you prefer me to go with Islamic religious supremacist imperialist system of oppression? Bit of a mouthful though.

All people who murder innocent children are criminals.

Thanks for posting. This is what the Palestinians have been up against even before the current slaughter that the UN has described as a war crime.

I will try to listen later but I’d not go with the last line. Due to there being zero justification for October 7th

Why do people keep posting about innocent children. Aren't all children innocent. And this includes the Israeli children who were murdered or captured by Hamas.
The difference is that Hamas are using Palestinian children as human shields

Even before this war, 2022 was the worst year on record for Palestinian deaths, particularly in the occupied West Bank, many of them children.

All children are Innocent.

However many of us do not expect a democracy to excuse the murder of a 1000 children in the last two weeks as collateral damage. As Hamas is hiding behind children then by default the only way to be rid of Hamas is by murder of most of the children of Palestine? Can you see why there is an outcry? And Israel is saying this war will go on for months. So how many more murdered children should we just shrug and accept? Turn a blind eye too for the 'greater good'

Which is why Israel are rightly being called out by the UN and others

There’s a typo re the Today programme I referenced. The relevant piece is approx 2h 36m in (not 2h 30m).

If Hamas had dug tunnels into Israel and were allegedly hiding out in schools and hospitals there, would you still “stand with Israel” as they bomb it and attest that the Jewish, American and U.K. citizen kids there were sadly just “human shields” as you watch the bloody, crushed bodies of children pile up in their thousands?

Or would you suggest the only humane approach would be a ground offensive specifically targeting members of Hamas? Or you know, actually creating livable conditions for the Palestinians to move towards peace?

I see the beautiful angel in this photo, and it devastates me every time. An utterly hollow, sad, sinking horror. This should not be happening in our lifetimes, let alone with our governments backing this up.

Of course they have security concerns, how could they not, in light of the above?

I have to disagree with the second part of your sentence.

We humans are mostly relatively placid, simplistic creatures, that when given safety, comfort and basic rights and opportunities, will quite happily go along with the status quo.

Look at the U.K., for example. We are up to our eyeballs in taxes, many people are currently living under the stress of making ends meet financially, and our taxes seem to go into a pit that rarely benefit the common man, and yet we don’t riot, and we don’t form terrorist groups. Why? Because most of us have our basic needs met and there is a baseline of comfort and safety.

I know Palestinians in the U.K. whose families were attacked and ethnically cleansed during the Nakba. None of them are terrorists. They are all very successful, actually, and are doctors, dentists and successful entrepreneurs. They’re not currently trying to bomb Rishi Sunak for supporting the Israeli government in their name - why? Because they lead happy, successful lives and have comfort and opportunities.

Yes, it will likely not be perfect overnight, Palestine is in an utter state so it will take time to regenerate and recover from so many years of abject horror, but if you give people human rights and opportunities, things will absolutely change.

I've been crying so much for the children of Gaza, not just the ones who have been killed but the ones traumatised or injured by bombs and crying for parents, grandparents or siblings who won't be coming back. My tears aren't going to help anyone. But it's the saddest thing imaginable and we don't have to imagine it, because we can see it happening.

And then I see this photo you've attached to ambush everyone with more distressing images to cope with, and lo and behold you are sharing a screenshot from an account that callously denies and disregards the events of just two weeks ago, where children were shot, burnt alive, raped, had fingers cut off, and indeed were beheaded.

For the love of God, can people stop consuming and sharing these revolting misinformation merchants. What is happening is unbearably tragic, but if you can't be responsible enough to stay away from hateful antisemites or racists propagandists of all stripes, at least don't post it on here.

Firstly, I didn’t “ambush” anyone, I put a sensitive image marker on the photo.

Secondly, I haven’t got a clue which account you’re talking about, this image and the caption/writing was shared with me by a friend exactly as you see it attached to my post.

Thirdly, kids and adults writing their names on their body parts so that they can be easily identified is a very real thing happening in Gaza. Many people have struggled to identify their loved ones. Bodies have been piled up in the streets as there is no room in the morgues. People are doing this so that they can receive a proper burial.

https://nypost.com/2023/10/22/palestinian-parents-take-heartbreaking-step-of-writing-their-childrens-names-on-legs-to-id-them-if-killed/amp/

I’m sorry that you’re so affected by all this. I feel the exact same way. But please don’t jump on me and link me to racists or propagandists. That’s extremely unfair.

There are images from Gaza that will stay with me for a lifetime, just like the images from the holocaust and the images of the Tibetan monk who set himself on fire.

I will not censor myself and allow pro-Israeli government propagandists to continue to dehumanise the Palestinians and play down what 2,000 dead children looks like, and means.

I think people using the photos of dead children to justify their propaganda despicable

have some respect

Some people need to see the true horror of what's happening.

I haven’t got a clue which account you’re talking about, this image and the caption/writing was shared with me by a friend exactly as you see it attached to my post.

Oh really, you don't have a clue what I'm talking about when it's right there with the image?

"The IDF lied about 40 dead babies"

And you talk about downplaying dead children?

Compounding cruelty on top of cruelty. No words.

as if there could be any doubt over the state of the children cowardly slaughtered by terrorists

or the children flattened by bombs sent remotely by people who don't even have to get close

Oh right, I’m with you now. The “Israel are lying about 40 dead babies” is referencing Israeli government propaganda that said there were “40 beheaded babies” in the 7/10 attack, which was circulated in the media, even quoted by Joe Biden, before being proven to be false.

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/its-important-to-separate-the-facts-from-speculation-what-we-actually-know-about-the-viral-report-of-beheaded-babies-in-israel-12982329

Excerpt from the article:

He says: "They cut off heads… of children, of women."

And in another live broadcast, Zedek describes "40 babies at least were taken out on gurneys" - which is where the widely shared 40 figure comes from.
In an interview with Sky's Mark Austin on Tuesday evening, Israeli economy minister Nir Barkat echoed a similar claim: "We've seen just now... we've heard of 40 young boys. Some of them were burned alive. Some were beheaded. Some were shot in the head."

CBS News in the US said on Wednesday that Yossi Landau, head of operations at Zaka, Israel's volunteer civilian emergency response organisation, confirmed to them he had "personally seen" adults, children and babies beheaded.

But when asked directly whether "40 babies were beheaded", an IDF spokesman said children were killed - but that reports of beheadings were "unconfirmed".

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I assume you are UK-based, and so am I. Our media are not as biased as the US media is. People are angry that lies like the 40 beheaded babies spread like wildfire and are attributed to Palestinians as a whole, covertly and overtly, whilst Palestinian suffering is often underplayed or covered up. That is how I understood the caption.

That man who listened to a lot of right-wing talk radio in the US who then stabbed to death his 6 year old neighbour and stabbed his mum (luckily she survived) for being Muslim (despite being friends with them prior) because he thought he had to kill all Muslims to be safe, is proof of that dangerous bias.

There are an awful lot of people who don’t want the truth of situation to be shown, it doesn’t suit their agenda.

It wasn't Israeli government propaganda FFS. Babies WERE beheaded, nobody said all 40 were. I can't believe a) I am writing this b) it's still being debated like the exact number or mechanism is so important, when in fact the reality of what was done was even worse.

...lies like the 40 beheaded babies spread like wildfire and are attributed to Palestinians as a whole, covertly and overtly, whilst Palestinian suffering is often underplayed or covered up.

So the fact that the reality is as bad or worse makes this anti-Palestinian propaganda does it? Every single report states this was done by Hamas. And it should be reported, and remembered, and grieved for.

I completely reject the idea that Palestinian suffering is covered up, you can't be serious with that. And it's equally terrible. But your words about the disgraceful comment you shared uncritically are so disingenuous. "The IDF lied about 40 dead babies" means exactly that. And they haven't lied. They have tried very hard both to preserve the dignity of those who died and provide accurate reports, which is more than we can say about pretty much anything coming out of Hamas' mouthpieces at the moment.