Page 8 | To be horrified re the 2000+ children killed in Gaza.

SoShallINever · 2023-10-24T21:57:20+00:00

The news tonight was unbearable. I am sickened that the West is not calling for a ceasefire or some restraint. I found out today that Gaza is almost exactly the same size as the small Hebridean island of Jura. But whereas Jura has a few hundred residents, Gaza has 2.4 million packed in. You couldn't throw a stone into Gaza without it hitting someone, never mind a missile. The children of Gaza are not terrorists and I wish Israel would stop.

EasternStandard · 25/10/2023 10:59

Toothyfruity · 25/10/2023 10:57

This is ridiculous.

Why?

@MarySmit is right to counter that post

Toothyfruity · 25/10/2023 11:05

It's been countered and apologised for several times now.

It's just derailing the thread.

EasternStandard · 25/10/2023 11:07

Toothyfruity · 25/10/2023 11:05

It's been countered and apologised for several times now.

It's just derailing the thread.

Skip over it if it doesn’t matter to you.

It does to other posters.

Littlebluetruck · 25/10/2023 11:08

Coughingdodger · 25/10/2023 10:56

Ok I apologise yet again for my poorly worded post about a woman hitting a man and the man retaliating. A woman hitting a man is in no way comparable to Hamas killing innocent Israeli people including children. I realised that as soon as I wrote it and withdrew the analogy. Minimising the horrific events of October 7th was not my intention. The acts of murder on Oct 7th were barbaric and horrific.

The analogy of the man hitting the woman and her children in response is also entirely and inappropriately insufficient to describe Israel’s response in Gaza.

Hamas’s actions on October 7 th were horrific.

What is your opinion of Israel’s ongoing actions today?

Show quote history

What is your opinion of Israel’s ongoing actions today?

Horrific. Absolutely horrific.

I think the video I saw of the young child in a hospital shaking from shock and absolutely traumatised will stay with me forever. I want to cry every time I hug my own children.

I think the International community need to intervene here because there will clearly never be peace if Israel and Gaza are left to manage this situation on their own. The bombing needs to stop. It should never have started. There should have been an intervention the moment the atrocities on 7 October were committed.

Littlebluetruck · 25/10/2023 11:09

Toothyfruity · 25/10/2023 11:05

It's been countered and apologised for several times now.

It's just derailing the thread.

Most threads are being derailed because of similar comments though. It’s not okay.

Coughingdodger · 25/10/2023 11:13

Littlebluetruck · 25/10/2023 11:09

Most threads are being derailed because of similar comments though. It’s not okay.

Show quote history

I agree that my comment sounded minimising and it was right to call it out. I have apologised. Innocent people were murdered by criminals on October 7th.

Coughingdodger · 25/10/2023 11:16

I’m afraid though that I don’t agree that thousands of equally innocent children should be murdered in response. The people involved on both sides are disgusting.

Coughingdodger · 25/10/2023 11:17

And the reason people keep going on about what’s happening in Gaza is that it’s ongoing and happening right now and needs to be stopped.

bathrobeandpie · 25/10/2023 11:20

I think anyone who looks at a little child and think about his nationality or his colour has no humanity.

Coughingdodger · 25/10/2023 11:20

Stopped by mediators who can help Israel to protect and defend itself without lashing out like this. There must be some way. I really don’t think this is it.

yellowspanner · 25/10/2023 11:21

I'm with Israel
This could all be stopped if:
Hamas returned all of the hostages unharmed
Hamas released their stockpiles of fuel to their hospitals (but of course Hamas need to use the fuel to fire rockets at Israel)
The people of Gaza handed over the Hamas leaders to the international courts
Hamas are using their own citizens as shields and stockpiling weapons in schools and hospitals.

Littlebluetruck · 25/10/2023 11:22

Coughingdodger · 25/10/2023 11:13

I agree that my comment sounded minimising and it was right to call it out. I have apologised. Innocent people were murdered by criminals on October 7th.

Show quote history

Sorry, my comment wasn’t aimed at you. I had seen that you took responsibility for your comment and apologised and I really respect that.

My comment was more general. On another thread, a similar comment was made and that poster doubled down by saying that the only innocent children and babies in this conflict were Palestinian ones. It’s those comments that are causing me a great deal of concern.

I’m afraid though that I don’t agree that thousands of equally innocent children should be murdered in response. The people involved on both sides are disgusting.

I agree.

Littlebluetruck · 25/10/2023 11:23

bathrobeandpie · 25/10/2023 11:20

I think anyone who looks at a little child and think about his nationality or his colour has no humanity.

Absolutely.

All I see is a reflection of my own child. I would hope that most people do.

Toothyfruity · 25/10/2023 11:24

yellowspanner · 25/10/2023 11:21

I'm with Israel
This could all be stopped if:
Hamas returned all of the hostages unharmed
Hamas released their stockpiles of fuel to their hospitals (but of course Hamas need to use the fuel to fire rockets at Israel)
The people of Gaza handed over the Hamas leaders to the international courts
Hamas are using their own citizens as shields and stockpiling weapons in schools and hospitals.

So Israel is totally blameless? Are you insane? You think what's happening in Gaza is OK?

Parkingt111 · 25/10/2023 11:33

UNICEF: Gaza child casualties 'a stain on our collective conscience'

'UNICEF has called the number of child casualties in Gaza "a growing stain on our collective conscience" as it called for an urgent ceasefire.
The charity said "almost every child" in the region had been exposed to "deeply distressing events and trauma", as Israeli airstrikes cause widespread destruction and food and water run out.

Parkingt111 · 25/10/2023 11:35

I think if everyone could agree to this it would be a starting point to move on to a resolution

To be horrified re the 2000+ children killed in Gaza.

Milkandhoneybees · 25/10/2023 11:36

Maireas · 25/10/2023 10:46

It's very complicated.
If there was an easy solution, it could be resolved this afternoon.
Sadly, there isn't.

No, I refute that. It’s not complicated at all, actually. There are plenty of alternatives to a government deciding to explode kids.

A ground offensive whilst Hamas were still leaving Israel with hostages should have happened first - not just pressing buttons to blow up apartment blocks, shops and hospitals to kill innocent kids. A ground offensive would have been far more effective, which is what is deployed to find terrorists in the UK.

Clearly Israel do not want to launch a ground offensive as they are totally underprepared to fight against guerilla warfare, in which case:

Ceasefire now.

Stop allowing illegal settlements on Palestinian land, pulling Palestinians from their homes that they’ve lived for generations and allowing Dave from the USA to move in.
https://www.un.org/unispal/document/human-rights-council-hears-that-700000-israeli-settlers-are-living-illegally-in-the-occupied-west-bank-meeting-summary-excerpts/

Stop treating Palestinians in Israel as second-class citizens.
https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/22/palestinian-citizen-israel-without-supporting-hamas

Stop the blockade and military occupation.
https://www.emro.who.int/media/news/as-gazas-health-system-disintegrates-who-calls-for-safe-passage-of-fuel-supplies-for-health-facilities.html

Allow Palestinians their own country and a right to exist.

None of the above will be achieved with Netanyahu’s extremist far-right government, so in order for this to happen, firstly get him out - which according to polls, most Israelis want anyway. He has been charged with fraud and corruption already.

Netanyahu ensures that Israel stays militarised (against a Palestinian population with no army, that’s comprised of half kids) so that he can export the weapons.

Israel made $12.5 billion in 2022 from arms sales as reported by the Israeli newspaper, Times of Israel - where is the incentive for peace from this government with this kind of profit?
https://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-arms-sales-doubled-in-a-decade-hit-new-record-of-12-5-billion-in-2022/amp/

Even Golda Meir was open to a two-State solution and knew it was the only way forward, and even suggested that Palestine be backed by Jordan to ensure the peace and protection of the Palestinians, as reported by the Israeli newspaper Haaretz:
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-08-01/ty-article/.premium/golda-meir-was-open-to-a-palestinian-state-1970-minutes-reveal/00000189-b054-d083-a999-fc5ff4350000

How can a people be massacred, forced from their homes and exiled in the Nakba, have their country taken from them and denied their own country, subjected to bombings and the loss of their family members, whole families and neighbourhoods routinely wiped out or taken by settlers, kids thrown into solitary confinement and tortured by the Israeli government (https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/), yet people expect peace?

Israelis will never have peace unless the Palestinians have peace. And the Palestinians will never have peace with a war mongering Israeli government that profits from there not being peace. It really is that simple.

Terrorism is born out of terrorism.

There has to be a negotiation, and Israel needs a new government. One that is truly committed to peace and free of corruption.

I’m a Palestinian citizen of Israel. Right now, that’s as complex as you could possibly imagine | Israel-Hamas war | The Guardian

One can support Palestinians’ right to resist the occupation without supporting Hamas, says Maria Rashed, a freelance journalist

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/22/palestinian-citizen-israel-without-supporting-hamas

yellowspanner · 25/10/2023 11:39

Toothyfruity, no I don't think what's happening in Gaza is ok but I do think that Hamas bear the responsibility for it .
They are stockpiling fuel instead of giving it to their hospitals.
They bombed their own hospital and blamed the Israelis . The fact that it was a mistake is of no consequence. They were firing at Israel and missed.
Hamas have it in their power to stop this.
Let them return the hostages and surrender their leaders

JSMill · 25/10/2023 11:43

Weonlyhavealoanofit · 25/10/2023 10:27

Why am I feeling very pessimistic and genuinely fearful for the next generation?

I hate the divisiveness of this conflict, it is a human rights issue and it started years before the dreadful murders of the 6/7 October. Before that weekend, one population has been dispossessed of its lands, and moved either into miserably overcrowded ‘refugee camps’ or marooned into a ghetto [I don't believe that any other word is suitable] and subject to a 16 year blockade which has reduced a stateless population to utter misery, and without hope, and without any real support in the wider world. Who was posting about these things before the 6th October? The silence was deafening. International Law has been ignored at every turn and the world’s only super power gives unilaterally allegiance and arms to Israel. If one takes the words Israeli and Palestinian out of the equation and substitute them for Nation A and Nation B people are horrified at the sufferings of Nation B notwithstanding the history of racism perpetrated against Nation A. The USA even blocked a proposal that their be a ‘cessation of fighting’ at the UN. Where is our humanity?

The West through the British Mandate and through the machinations of the UN helped create Israel as a way of dealing with its guilt over centuries of Western anti semitism and the refugees created by Nazism, I think the dream of a nation where Jews could live free from racism and as a beacon to other nations has failed. How many of us as young people wanted to visit Israel and work in a kibbutz, I know I did, it was a very idealistic society but over time the idealism seems to have been replaced with a very violent and racist underbelly, and its racism is directed at Arabs, be they Christian or Muslim. Now it seems to be about a land grab where only people claiming Jewish ancestry have any rights. Yes it will tolerate Western holidaymakers especially of the evangelical Christian persuasion, but it will not tolerate any Arabs living on the land. Netanyahu and his present cabinet contain some truly appalling people, who are trying to destroy Israeli democracy. A political settlement is the only way peace will be established. It requires all the protagonists to negotiate. It requires compromise and a respect for international law. It requires political will, it will require the USA to demand certain things of Israel and I cant see that happening anytime soon.

We are heading to an abyss over the Middle East and the so called ‘Muslim world’. We have the Saudis and their genocidal war in Yemen, which should be a cause of immense public outrage, but as usual we are not bothered about this genocide. Paraphrasing Trump after the murder of Jamal Khasoggi, ‘we do too much business with these guys to do anything’. We have the Saudis and their hands on the distribution and price of oil. We have the Saudis and their policy of creating and funding extremism elsewhere in the world. Accepting Saudi money seems to lead to lower standards in public life. When violent oppressive regimes control the purse strings, people seem to lose sight of right and wrong, they compromise their beliefs they start to tolerate what should not be tolerated.

The states surrounding Israel: Egypt, Lebanon and Jordan cannot cope with any more refugees. They are poor nations and fractured societies where national unity is very fragile. We have the multiple disasters of the Bush/Blair wars in Iraq and Libya which have reduced these states to poverty and rampant sectarianism, we have the civil war raging in Syria and we have been trying for decades to isolate and destroy Iran. A nation were the West’s meddling in the 50s staged a coup and brought down a moderate and democratically elected government headed by Mosaddegh for the sole purpose of protecting British petroleum and US oil companies. His government was replaced by the murderous regime of the Shah which in turn helped create the extremism of the Ayatollah Khomeini.

We have a presidential election in the States being fought by lets face it 2 elderly man who are engaged in the fight for the ‘American soul’….where senators no longer represent the people because they have been bought and paid for by the sectional interests beloved of oligarchs and are, with 1 or 2 exceptions representatives of the fabulously rich, a large part of which is made up of the arms industry, pharmaceutical industry, banking, media and the technology industry.

Ukraine and Russia seem to be set for a long slow painful war that may last years, and China is always the sleeping giant, the West having embraced the philosophy of ‘globalisation’. A policy which made a new class of capitalist , ‘the oligarch’ , people who almost overnight are richer than nation states and wield immense and unfettered power. Globalisation has led to the deindustrialisation of the West and is now leading to a revival of right wing parties, who are opposed to non white immigration and very assertive about patriotism. India appears to be set on a course of extreme Hindu nationalism and is virulently anti Muslim, and Brazil home to the Amazon has a significant population still supportive of Bolsonaro and his environmental thuggery. AND looming over the entire planet is the disaster known as climate change, which will radically alter WHERE, HOW and IF the human race can live.

Great post.

Littlebluetruck · 25/10/2023 11:43

Milkandhoneybees · 25/10/2023 11:36

No, I refute that. It’s not complicated at all, actually. There are plenty of alternatives to a government deciding to explode kids.

A ground offensive whilst Hamas were still leaving Israel with hostages should have happened first - not just pressing buttons to blow up apartment blocks, shops and hospitals to kill innocent kids. A ground offensive would have been far more effective, which is what is deployed to find terrorists in the UK.

Clearly Israel do not want to launch a ground offensive as they are totally underprepared to fight against guerilla warfare, in which case:

Ceasefire now.

Stop allowing illegal settlements on Palestinian land, pulling Palestinians from their homes that they’ve lived for generations and allowing Dave from the USA to move in.
https://www.un.org/unispal/document/human-rights-council-hears-that-700000-israeli-settlers-are-living-illegally-in-the-occupied-west-bank-meeting-summary-excerpts/

Stop treating Palestinians in Israel as second-class citizens.
https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/22/palestinian-citizen-israel-without-supporting-hamas

Stop the blockade and military occupation.
https://www.emro.who.int/media/news/as-gazas-health-system-disintegrates-who-calls-for-safe-passage-of-fuel-supplies-for-health-facilities.html

Allow Palestinians their own country and a right to exist.

None of the above will be achieved with Netanyahu’s extremist far-right government, so in order for this to happen, firstly get him out - which according to polls, most Israelis want anyway. He has been charged with fraud and corruption already.

Netanyahu ensures that Israel stays militarised (against a Palestinian population with no army, that’s comprised of half kids) so that he can export the weapons.

Israel made $12.5 billion in 2022 from arms sales as reported by the Israeli newspaper, Times of Israel - where is the incentive for peace from this government with this kind of profit?
https://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-arms-sales-doubled-in-a-decade-hit-new-record-of-12-5-billion-in-2022/amp/

Even Golda Meir was open to a two-State solution and knew it was the only way forward, and even suggested that Palestine be backed by Jordan to ensure the peace and protection of the Palestinians, as reported by the Israeli newspaper Haaretz:
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-08-01/ty-article/.premium/golda-meir-was-open-to-a-palestinian-state-1970-minutes-reveal/00000189-b054-d083-a999-fc5ff4350000

How can a people be massacred, forced from their homes and exiled in the Nakba, have their country taken from them and denied their own country, subjected to bombings and the loss of their family members, whole families and neighbourhoods routinely wiped out or taken by settlers, kids thrown into solitary confinement and tortured by the Israeli government (https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/), yet people expect peace?

Israelis will never have peace unless the Palestinians have peace. And the Palestinians will never have peace with a war mongering Israeli government that profits from there not being peace. It really is that simple.

Terrorism is born out of terrorism.

There has to be a negotiation, and Israel needs a new government. One that is truly committed to peace and free of corruption.

Show quote history

I agree with most of your post, however, Israel have very real security concerns that also need to be considered. And I don’t believe that can be solved by Israel simply having a Government that is committed to peace.

Maireas · 25/10/2023 11:46

No, @Milkandhoneybees it's not simple.
It's complicated.
You're right about one thing, Israel does need a new government. Fortunately, because they have elections, that's entirely possible.

Maireas · 25/10/2023 11:47

I agree with you, @Littlebluetruck .
Plus if the Israelis elect such a government, would that guarantee their security?

EsmaCannonball · 25/10/2023 11:50

TheFirie · 25/10/2023 10:24

Hamas is a terrorist group doing horrible things.
Palestinians are not Hamas.

Would you have justified bombarding NI every time the IRA planted a bomb?

The IRA weren't the government of Northern Ireland. Planting a bomb isn't quite the same as committing a mass atrocity. The IRA didn't have a founding charter that stated the aim to wipe Great Britain off the map, kill every British person there and every British person on the planet. IRA terrorists faced punishment if caught, they weren't praised and financially rewarded by their own government. Britain wasn't surrounded by countries who supported the IRA and who were also itching to kill every British person. If Britain bombed Northern Ireland we would have been bombing mainly Unionists, which would have been strategically insane.

daytriptovulcan · 25/10/2023 11:54

It's a disgrace for sure.
And then there are Keir Starmer's weasel words 😣
Was hoping for a bit of leadership from him.

Toothyfruity · 25/10/2023 11:56

yellowspanner · 25/10/2023 11:39

Toothyfruity, no I don't think what's happening in Gaza is ok but I do think that Hamas bear the responsibility for it .
They are stockpiling fuel instead of giving it to their hospitals.
They bombed their own hospital and blamed the Israelis . The fact that it was a mistake is of no consequence. They were firing at Israel and missed.
Hamas have it in their power to stop this.
Let them return the hostages and surrender their leaders

Wow. The cognitive dissonance to completely absolve the people who've dropped 12000 tons of explosives onto defenceless civilians is really breathtaking.

And extremely fucked up.