it's not a tiny minority is it

[noddyington]

I do not know any women who have not had something bad or intimidating happen to them in their lifetime. Whether that be cat calling, followed, talked down to, pushed out of spaces, pushed over for promotion, assaulted, stalked, raped or murdered.

I do not know any women who have not changed their behaviour to try and keep themselves safe. It might be walking with keys between their fingers, getting a taxi when they'd rather walk, covering their drink when they are at a bar, not responding when a guy intimidates/heckles at them because it's safer, run or jog in groups, don't wear headphones walking late a night.........

AIBU to say that it's not a tiny minority of men is it?

If a man is decent, then he wouldn't be upset by this. My husband agrees with OP. Being a decent man doesn't just mean not doing these things, it also means calling out bad behaviour in other men and being able to have discussions like this.

Sorry I totally agree with the previous poster. What do many many men do? Watch 'harmless' porn. I can surmise it is mostly men as the multibillion industry is mainly porn aimed at pleasing men and NOT women. What does hetero porn do? Degrade women.. mostly! And give men control over women's bodies, even ones they've never met. That's what web camming is about to be honest too. Control. Over women..why then are we women so dumbfounded men behave the way they do? Why do we make excuses for porn. It is damaging their brains from a young impressionable age and it's time to stop 'being cool' about it and pretending that isn't the case.

In my experience the decent men generally don't get upset by this and acknowledge that there are a very high number of very problematic men.

Violence is just one aspect of it though.

It’s the casual attitude of men towards women which is so demoralising.

I will never forget my team supervisor forcing the men in our office team to look at pictures of topless girls during a working session we had together. I was the only woman and I just sat at one side of the room trying to pretend I wasn’t there. There was one nice guy who really didn’t want to participate and was so upset by it, he apologised to me afterwards that he couldn’t stop it. The other men just joined in and had a “larf” about it,

And then my senior manager used to turn his coffee cup upside down during meetings and look at me and say “why is my cup empty? It’s your job to keep it filled.” I was not, at that time, the most junior on the team. But I was the only girl.

Is it any wonder we haven’t progressed? These same men are now fathers of young teenagers. What values do they instil in their own children? How do they treat their wives? I dread to think.

It’s not a tiny minority.

The statistics are just the official record. The lower level stuff has no recorded statistics.
I also think people who live in certain areas, have different careers or jobs, or transport modes experience these issues differently.

Testosterone may play a part, but sexual violence is motivated usually by violence and a need to control, dominate or degrade.
Porn and it's normalisation and availability has certainly played a part.
Social media too. We are seeing mens views more and more, encouraged by anonymity, and by each other. It has helped men organise and share extreme fetishes and kinks, such as the Pelicot case.
I follow a bra fitters account on Instagram. Really helpful. One lady was a 30i size, fitter had included a headless shot of her with a recommended bra. Woman was probably 60. Totally non sexual photo. A man had put in the comments section as a reply "not my proudest wank". WTAF.

The pp wrote IF there were no consequences.
Also, how many incidents are captured by the data? If it's only those reported to the police it will only be a small proportion.

I used ‘only’ in the sense of it’s a minority: 76% of males were estimated to have no criminal convictions. The vast majority of males.

Of course you’re quite correct. Not everyone who commits a crime is convicted - or even charged, arrested or reported. Then again, some of those convicted may have been wrongly convicted or acquitted on appeal.

And the report related to convictions for all ‘standard list’ offences. Most crimes aren’t violent or crimes against women.

Men in general feel entitled to women bodies and labour and many don’t see women as fully human like them. To a lot of men we’re glorified pets - and lots of people love their pets dearly but pets they are at the end of the day. If you want to put it to the test start saying no to or asking more of the men you live and work with and you’ll find out who sees you as an autonomous human equal and who gets upset that their female bot is malfunctioning.

I never believe the women on mn that trot out every single man they’ve ever met has been an absolute gentleman. When I think of the sheer number of predatory men I’ve come across in my life in so many different scenarios I cannot see how you could’ve swerved every single one. Not one public transport wanker, pub groper, dodgy teacher, lecherous work colleague or pervy street stranger?

Two months ago I was flashed - guy blocked me on a path and unzipped his trousers and got his dick out and started stroking it as I approached. Asked me if I could help him, asked me why I was in a hurry?

It was 8am in the morning in broad daylight and I was on my way to work. The path was the exit route out of a station - the only way out of the station.

Pure intimidation and power hungry bastard. Unknown to him, someone else was near and realised and snapped his photo. Yes i called the police and yes he was charged but of course the shit is out on bail.

What else have I experienced in my life?

Those are the "one on many". A "good" man isn't going to suddenly decide to grope someone. A man who does it repeatedly will. Did every man in the area assault you, or just one of them?

The maths does add up. The repeat offenders assault multiple women. I walked past hundreds of men today, sat beside them on busses, a train, had two of them drive my taxi, stood in a lift with four of them, was in a bub with dozens of them, and had a medical exam with one of them. Out of all those men, not a single one assaulted me.

Same here, I was thinking about a couple of things that happened in my first term at university where I could have easily been assaulted. But I wasn't. I was lucky to be with decent men, I guess.

I have a low opinion of men in general as a sex class. I think the vast majority are permanently “up for it” and if an opportunity presents for no-strings sex without anyone else knowing, most men would take it. I include people I love in this - DB is a great brother and considerate son, but I think he is a shit husband and he has been unfaithful. Many, many otherwise “good men” are capable of behaving badly and frightening women.

Far too many men think of rape as a crime where a stranger snatches a woman off a secluded path after dark. Even DH - we were discussing the RB case during the trial and as part of the conversation I mentioned that it took until the 1990s for rape to be made illegal within marriage and he didn’t know it was!

Other message cut short -what else have I experienced in my life? A lot! Heckling, cat calls, men playing rap music about “hoes” and rape at full blast from their phones on trains, being asked by contractors if i know what a screwdriver is and “ask your dad if he has one” - then theres the unasked for, unprompted dick pics on online dating. Honestly lost count.
I dont know any man who feels like they need to carry a rape alarm or their key between their fingers walking home.

And the guy who flashed me cant be barred from the station because it’s also his route to work and therefore his human right.

I dont believe all men will commit an act of sexual violence, or act in an intimidating or predatory way on purpose towards women. But I totally agree it’s more than a small minority, I think it is a significantly large chunk.

I am happy single. I honestly cant stand the sight of mens bits anymore.

Male viewpoint here

I really do not think in the vast majority of cases it is because the man hates the woman, I am not saying this is always the case as there definitely are some situations with men who do genuinely hate women. But the vast majority of the examples you mentioned are more down to selfishness, arrogance, egotistical (insert other similar words, self centered, narcissistic, entitled). The man only thinks about what he wants, it is not because he hates the woman, its because he thinks I am entitled/deserve her to be interested in me so I will (whatever action) and that's fine because its what I want.

I do hesitate to comment on this, but I will just say: young boys have long been socialised to expect a future with plenty of sex on tap, even before they've had any! And this was true even when I was teenager in the 60s. But the environment in which kids are being brought up today is on another level to the 'hedge porn' 😀of back then. You only have read the posts here from primary school teachers about some of the appalling behaviour. Porn and SM are rampant, and how parents deal with this, God knows. I know I fear for my infant grand-daughter.

in 2015 researchers surveyed 73 Australian university students 31.7% admitted that they “Would force a woman to have sexual intercourse if nobody would know and there were no consequences”.

Those results mirrored similar studies of Canadian University students in the 80s.

This year a much larger study has been conducted of over 2500 men aged 18-34 across US and Canada who were guaranteed anonymity and asked to rate how often they had used specific tactics in the last 2 years in order to get sex from a woman they hadn’t known before that encounter.

The list below is the tactics they said they had used, first number is ‘once or twice’ during that 2 year period, the second number is ‘numerous times’ during that 2 year period.

Demanded she stop pretending to be uninterested in sex - 131 (4.9%), 382 (14.2%)
Cornered her so she could only focus on them - 177 (6.6%), 335 (12.5%)
Stopped her or tried to stop her from leaving - 130 (4.8%), 355 (13.2%)
Focused on a woman they thought unlikely to tell anyone - 140 (5.2%) 267 (9.9%)
Showed her that she was making them angry - 114 (4.2%) 275 (10.2%)
Had her come to their home when she did not want to - 138 (5.1%) 250 (9.3%)
Questioned her sexuality (e.g. called her a lesbian or a cold bitch) - 95 (3.5%) 281 (10.4%)
Yelled at her or gave her hell for leading them on - 102 (3.8%) 238 (8.9%)
Let her know she would regret refusing - 112 (4.2%) 207 (7.7%)
Took advantage of her being asleep or sleepy - 89 (3.3%) 210 (7.8%)
Overpowered her physically from the start - 109 (4.1%) 161 (6.0%)
Used physical restraint, such as holding her down or tying her hands - 89 (3.3%) 165 (6.1%)
Used physical force to cause pain - 70 (2.6%) 178 (6.6%)
Forced her to enjoy it - 91 (3.4%) 153 (5.7%)
Used drugs to help, e.g. GHB or roofies - 84 (3.1%) 146 (5.4%)
Threatened to embarrass or shame her - 94 (3.5%) 123 (4.6%)
Threatened to hurt themselves - 78 (2.9%) 104 (3.9%)
Threatened to hurt her - 70 (2.6%) 70 (2.6%)
Used something, including a weapon, to frighten her - 74 (2.8%) 74 (2.8%)

So this is self reported confessions from this sample group, that numerous times over a 2 year period 6.6% of participants had used physical restraint to get sex from on a woman they hadn’t known before they met that day. That 5.4% had used drugs, that 13.2% had stopped or tried to stop her from leaving.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/08862605261432630?utmsource=chatgpt.com

Since 2023, there have been approximately 820,000 reported sexual assaults

reported. Tip of the iceberg. Many women have listed dozens of assaults just on this thread - I wonder how many of those were reported? 1% maybe? I have never reported any of mine.

Sorry to have offended you. I don't know anything about you, as you say, except what you told us in your post - that none of these things have happened to you because you don't go on public transport or go to bars or parties or have male friends who aren't your husband's friends or work. I'm not judging your choices, just suggesting that if the only way to not get unwanted advances from men is to not travel, not to work, not to have male friends and not to go to parties, that is a bargain most women wouldn't want to make. If you're happy with it, that's fine, but the point I was trying to make is that women shouldn't have to miss out on things in order not get assaulted. That's all.

I was talking to my best friend about this this week. We met at secondary school. We started off saying we hadn't been raped but... Both of us could come up with multiple examples of being sexually assaulted - bum pinching, breast grabbing, hand under skirt, lifting up skirt or pulling down skirt/top, hand on vulva under skirt, finger in vagina under pants. Also being coerced into doing more than you were comfortable with. Also rescuing drunk girls from men who were taking advantage of them or who were trying to separate them from their friends and get them on their own. The list goes on and on.

At the time we didn't like it but it never occurred to me it was a crime that I should report to the police. I'm now educating my DDs about what is sexual assault and what you shouldn't have to put up with because no one ever had that conversation with me.

I know my DH and DS are ‘good’ men, but I agree that men on the whole are not.

i was sexually assaulted at 14 - thankfully not raped or anything under clothes - but I remember it so clearly 40 years on. At the time I just wanted to get home (was about a minute from my house, down an alleyway). Never told my parents, my dad would’ve gone berserk up to the school (was a boy from the local school, i didn’t go there) and probably found him though!! I think the boy only stopped because he could hear someone coming. After that I walked a different way home for ages.

i can totally see why women don’t speak out. It’s embarrassing, you think you’ve done something to ‘lead them on’, etc.

You think all of the men who have committed violent crimes show up in “the data”?

You do realise that the vast, vast majority of crimes such as rape never make it to court? There are thousands of men walking around scott free who have committed all manner of crimes against women and girls.

Is that not exactly the point - they view women as a object to be possessed, controlled or owned and not as an equal human being. Men like that look down on women with distain and hate the idea of having to treat them as people.

And add in the prevalence of hard core violent pornography. It’s a recipe for disaster for women.

But think about what you are saying. Man only thinks about himself. And why is that? Because he doesn't see the woman as worthy of his respect or consideration of her feelings. She is dehumanised and he is indifferent to her. Almost worst than hate, it's no emotion at all. Its the failure of empathy. It's the same reason men war. Control and lack of empathy for others.