To think MIL and SIL shouldn’t stop DD from caring about her appearance?

[theandl]

My MIL and SIL are quite different to me. They’re very much “looks are the least interesting thing about you” people and tend to look down on women who wear makeup, make an effort with clothes etc. They’re also very much of the “go on, have another piece of bread/pudding” school of eating and will make comments if anyone says no to dessert even when full.

I’m not particularly obsessed with looks but I do take pride in my appearance. I exercise, try to keep my weight fairly stable, wear makeup, make an effort with my clothes etc. I have a good job, 3 kids, went to Oxford, lots of hobbies, travel etc, so it’s not as though my appearance is my entire personality, but I do like looking nice. Mainly for myself rather than anyone else but also I guess my daughter so she’s not embarrassed to go to her mum by the school gates.

My DD is 7 and she’s quite similar to me in that respect. She loves choosing her outfits, doing her hair, pretty dresses, lip balm etc. She’s also bright, funny, loves reading and drawing, does gymnastics and is generally a lovely kid. She just likes pretty things and likes looking nice. Like many little girls I guess she copies me, her mum.

Recently MIL and SIL have started making little comments about it and it’s really starting to get to me. Things like “are we going through the whole wardrobe before we leave?”, “who are you trying to impress?” and “you know nobody really cares what you’re wearing, don’t you?”

The other day DD came downstairs in a new dress she’d picked out and clearly looked very happy with herself, thought she looked nice. SIL laughed and said something like “honestly, you are obsessed with looking pretty. It’s much more important to be clever.” DD just said “I am clever.” And that’s the bit that’s really got to me. I genuinely don’t care what they think about me. If they think I’m too interested in my appearance then fine, I’m an adult and can deal with it. But she’s 7. I don’t think adults need to be making comments to a 7yo about being vain or caring too much about how she looks.

Equally if she’s full and doesn’t want cake or another piece of lasagne, she’ll say “no thank you”, which I think is healthy. MIL will act all offended, as to them not finishing everything that someone has cooked is rude. By which I mean, if let’s say 10 portions of lasagne were cooked for 6 people and the surplus 4 were unfinished, it would be rude for people to say “no thank you” after they had eaten their original full portion and finished everything on their plate, just saying no to seconds.

Obviously I tell her that being kind, funny, clever, brave etc is much more important than being pretty. But I also don’t think there’s anything wrong with her liking dresses and doing her hair and wanting to look nice, twirling in front of the mirror and enjoying how she looks. They’re not mutually exclusive. I’ve told them to knock it off and they think I’m being too sensitive and that it’s only teasing. Other times they say that looks shouldn’t be something we think about at all but… people do think about looks, it’s just life!

Agree. I take care of myself for me (exercise, skincare, doing hair), but as a child and even as a teen I never once felt embarrassed about my mum not being all dressed up at the school gates!

I agree with you on most other things you’ve said but I can’t get my head around your 7 year old being potentially embarrassed if you don’t wear make up at the gate? Can you elaborate?

Invite your MIL and SIL round for a movie night with you daughter. Put on Legally Blonde.

Also force an unending supply of popcorn on your MIL and SIL. Every time they say no thank you I've had enough, put on a hurt face, I just microwaved you a fresh bag of popcorn, you said it's rude to not finish food someone made for you!

Hopefully they will get the point.

Our primary school, the parents were all working so the drop off pick up time everyone looked smart enough and most wore some makeup. Never noticed anyone in nightwear.

If a child says they're full, respect that. We always ate family style if someone didn't like one thing they would eat more of another. The left overs went into the dogs breakfasts in the morning, so everyone is happy.

There’s a big difference between looking pretty and looking nice. I do wish my daughter would take more time and effort with her appearance as the constant reminding in the mornings and before going out anywhere gets exhausting. I know she wouldn’t think twice going to school without brushing her hair, dirty stains on her clothes and drawing all over her hands and legs. Shirt not tucked in. Breakfast round her mouth. It drives me barmy. She doesn’t give two hoots and she’s 11!!
A lot of young girls enjoy dresses and make up for the right reasons. It’s fun and it looks nice and also enjoying wearing nice clothes. It becomes very different if it’s about being attractive, obsessing over weight and appearance to fit in and when they’re older, to catch boy’s attention. Girls should only be taught to be themselves, comfortable in their own skin but also enjoy being a girl!!

Your MIL/SIL shouldn’t be making personal comments like that. Can you spend less time with them? I agree that you should comment when they say anything to your daughter. Your daughter sounds great.

Wow, when you said you went to Oxford I'm assuming you meant you went on a shopping trip there rather than the university?

I have always been into fashion, generally look nice and put outfits together well etc. I wear some make up but not loads, and there are many days I wear no make up and leave the house.

My 9 year old daughter by comparison has zero interest in clothes or makeup, she wants to be comfortable and I love that about her! She’s confident no matter what she wears or looks like, because she’s confident in her personality.

I’d be worried about one so young being concerned about how she looks.

I'm with your MIL and SIL on this. In a world where younger and younger girls are wearing makeup, 20 year old are getting lip fillers and botox etc and SM is away with filtered women it's not a bad thing to teach a young girl that there is a lot more important aspects to life.

Fine if she enjoys wearing specific clothes but she's copying your behaviour and its not necessarily healthy. Who on earth puts together a look for the school gates?!

I don’t think your MIL and SIL should have said those things but you do seem fixated on looks and window dressing which in itself is ok but then saying everyone judges on looks is a bit sad. Do you live in the Home Counties? There does seem to be a preoccupation on how people look, how big their house or how expensive their car is. I personally don’t care what others choose to wear or what they look like. Live and let live.

I think children will be embarrassed by their parents whatever you wear.
I think its important to look nice and look well presented. I enjoy clothes and make up. Some people aren't.
One of my SILs isn't into dressing up for events etc and they wear what they feel comfortable in. Which is fine.
The only time I have an issue is when they make a comment about me looking glamorous but then saying that they don't and thats OK.

I was hmmmm. until you said they excuse it as teasing. Anybody who says this is a bully and knows it.
And I do not care what other people think of how I look and never have.

My DD is 7 and she’s quite similar to me in that respect. She loves choosing her outfits, doing her hair, pretty dresses, lip balm etc.

my daughter at this age was not remotely interested in outfits or hair and certainly didn’t even have access to lip balm. Same with her friends. Maybe things have changed now.

OP, I agree that some of the comments here are a bit harsh. I don’t have experience with being embarrassed by my mum but the opposite — I do recall feeling proud that my mum looked stylish and put together, when picking me up from school, even me aged 7 and I absolutely did care about clothes at that age - and no I don’t think everyone should care about being fashionable, but aesthetics can be a positive thing and a form of self expression. While I believe that looks and appearance is everyone’s own business, and it’s not the most important quality in life, I also don’t support the trend of wearing tracksuits, PJs outside home and looking sloppy, filthy because to me that’s about respect to others. I am not British so maybe it’s also a culture thing but to me wearing appropriate clothes and not pyjamas means showing respect to others. But I know there are other people who are completely unbothered and don’t notice what people or themselves wear so how sensitive you are to all of this can also be part of ones personality. I don’t think it’s just what you learn in family or culture - we are also different in how visual we are etc etc. I think OP is a good mum and seems like you and your daughter have similar personalities in enjoying fashion and girly things:)

YANBU - nobody should be critiquing the appearance (or the harmless personality traits, which is partly what this is about) of a 7yo. But the fact is that from the day the start going to nursery or school or playdates or anywhere that isn't your house, they mix with people who aren't you and absorb opinions and messages from people who are not you. No doubt kids at school sometimes tell her things which you believe or know to be nonsense and you'd rather she didn't hear them. We're all bombarded with all kinds of messages all day every day from cradle to grave - from other people, our culture, media, art etc etc. The question is whether we believe them. And it doesn't sound like she believes that liking to look nice makes her an airhead. She knows how to bat away that sort of thing and she's doing fine. As with everything else, you get to teach her what you believe, the rest of the world will sometimes tell her different, and along the way she will decide what SHE believes. Sooner or later, she will believe some stuff that you don't, and do some stuff you would never do. She's a person; not something you (or anyone) can program.

This (the appearance thing) is largely a matter of personality, which is mostly innate. It's like caring a lot about the look of your house or whatever. Some people do, some don't, and these sort of tendencies tend to show up pretty early. It's on the same level as liking jazz music or something - cool if you do, cool if you don't, be yourself, says nothing about your character or intelligence, not a valid reason for anyone else to have a go at you. Yes, people who look reasonably smart and groomed get treated with more respect, for better or worse. But she'll figure that out in time no matter what anyone else has to say.

Definitely ok to be firm with the family on the food thing though - "No, it's not rude to stop eating when you've had enough, please don't tell her that. No, dd you don't have to eat more when you're full". That's about health, not a trivial thing like whether you're into fashion. Knowing how to regulate your own appetite is a good thing and you should not back up anyone who's telling her different in front of her.

They sound joyless individuals- have you considered that they may be envious as you are clearly a rounded personality, clever & look good?! I would delight in winding them up and going full glam, if they want to wear sackcloth and eat gruel -
let them!!!

I think you’re being perfectly reasonable and I bet everyone taking issue with your flippant comment about the school gates are just butthurt because they turn up in their slippers and gown, covered in crisps lol.

I think you just need to tell MIL and SIL to cut it out a bit and have frank conversations with your DD about different perspectives. You can’t protect her forever from differing opinions, you can only give her a good grounding in the values you believe in and the tools to think critically herself about messages she hears that are different from these.

Presumably she’s not having heaps of meals with MIL and SIL, so as long as you’re modelling healthy eating in all other contexts then I doubt some mild pressure to eat dessert is going to have a huge influence on her approach to food generally. All you can do is instil the values you want her to have around healthy eating and then she can make her own judgements.

I remember really clearly when I was about 6 and really excited to have curled hair and my “mean” aunt brushed them out because she thought I seemed too full of myself. It didn’t change my approach to grooming or make me feel ashamed of caring about my hair, it just made me think she wasn’t very nice! And I still make an effort with my hair and love a good blow dry. Just to say, I doubt they’ll have that much influence no matter what they say.

4 boys. They are 23, 19 & 18 (youngest is 3) and never once have they made a comment about what I wore to collect them or what anyone else wore. Maybe because I didn't neither, so it never crossed their minds....just be wary of what you're saying and putting in her mind. Is she wearing nice things for her or so you don't make comments on what she's wearing?

I agree with you. I was very aware at a young age. I recall most of my peers were too.

Grand daughters at school. Peers have influenced them. I remember the Swifty mania, music, boots etc. Then along came KPop which I thought awful. Gawd knows what it is today. I'll have to ask.

I had lip balm as a child. My lips cracked terribly in the winter and my cheeks would get chapped so I remember having some of mummies moisturizer.

My friends and I occasionally would get dressed up and put on play make-up. Barbie was a big influence.

I think YANBU but think I will be in the minority

Looking good just is important. It boosts self esteem and how you take care of yourself in the future

X

To the specific question in the thread title: YABU. You set too much store by your appearance; why on earth does keeping your weight stable come before your intelligence and work achievements in a list of things about you? You don’t seem at all prepared to consider that you might have your priorities wrong in this regard, or examine why that might be. But I also agree with you that a ‘no thank you’ to more food - if your daughter is full and doesn’t fancy it - is a healthy attitude, and also that your MIL and SIL’s comments are rude.

Have you tried, as a thought experiment, separating the appearance comments and the mealtime behaviours (insisting on DD having dessert) in your own mind? Could it be you who is seeing them as a continuum? If you can separate them, how does that influence how you feel about your MIL and SIL, and how you might accept their different perspective or assert your own values?

ETA: I’m an Oxford educated mum of 3 witha solid career. I’m overweight, though I do exercise and eat healthily, and I roll up to school looking like absolute s. So that’s my declaration of interests here!

I agree with you around not being forced to have seconds / finish plate. But I agree with your MIL / SIL on looks being the least interesting thing about you - wish mine were like that rather than being obsessed with weight, what someone is wearing etc. Think on balance their attitude sounds slightly less damaging than yours… but somewhere in the middle is about right.

Should have RTFT before commenting. Now I think YABU. I wear bright outlandish clothes. Never used to, used to be obsessed with trying to fit in. Now I wear what brings me joy, can’t say any primary school age kid has ever looked at me twice regardless of what I’m wearing. People wear all sorts at school drop off, it isn’t an indicator of them as a parent and you’d do well to teach your kid not to be unkind to someone based on their choice of clothes….

Also got a degree from Oxford (just to casually drop that in, too... ), and I think everyone is BU here, so a few observations.

It's fine for anyone of any age to take pleasure in clothes or make up. Beautiful things are enjoyable, fun, and make life that little bit nicer. My DS7 also enjoys bright colours, fun patterns, wearing "smart" shirts for parties. It's lovely to see. I'd hate to see anyone shaming a child for this kind of enjoyment.

The above is very different to feeling like one should be embarrassed not to meet certain standards of appearance - standards that are artificial, change over time, and are always more accessible to those with wealth. If you think I'm embarrassing or that a child would be embarrassed to be seen with me because I'm a size 16 - does that count as "noticably different" when a lot of women where I live are very slim? Or if I sometimes turn up with wet hair and no make up when I drop the kids at school? If so, that's quite sad for you.

So yes, your MIL and SIL shouldn't pick on your DD's perfectly normal amount of childhood vanity. But how many hours of a day do you want your DD to spend thinking that her appearance or her outfit might be embarrassing to someone? That she can never just say, I'd rather get 15 minutes more sleep than blow-dry my hair - or that her mum might judge her for that? Or what if she ends up loving clothes that other people might think are unsophisticated? If she carefully curates outfits that other people would never walk down the street in?

Sorry OP, but I wonder if your MiL and SiL are trying to counter some unhealthy ideas you are perhaps unwittingly imposing on your daughter.

It is very odd for a 7 year old to notice, let alone care, if their mother has dressed nicely or put make up on at the school gates. I have an 8 year old DD who I pick up with no make up on etc who is just delighted to see me and that it’s home time.

If your DD really does get embarrassed then you have led her to believe that women should be presenting themselves in a certain way. But I suspect any embarrassment may be all in your head, which is a little sad too.