AIBU to refuse a tenant's vulnerable guest staying in my HMO?

[Poster555]

NC for this. I know landlords aren’t always popular here.

I own and manage a few HMO’s in a nearby city. All legal requirements fulfilled, and normally have long term tenants.

I woke this morning to a host of missed calls.
One of the tenants, who has been fine for several years, invited his friend/ relative to stay for a temporary period as she was having issues with her landlord.
He did not discuss this with me or the other tenants.

Tenants are of course allowed visitors, including overnight for a day or two ( longer if they are visiting from abroad, etc. it’s pretty flexible).
The Tenancy Agreement is very clear that visitors visit the person, and they should never be left unsupervised in the property or given a key.

Around 6 weeks ago I was at the property for a routine treatment. The visitor was there alone. I had to ask her to leave as harmful chemicals were being used.

I had a chat with the tenant later and he explained it was a one off emergency.

It later transpired after complaints from other tenants and some unexplained damage that she was living in the property.

That was a problem. She had no primary address elsewhere and her presence took the property into the next level of HMO, meaning it needed to be registered.
The penalties for not registering when required are severe.

I told the tenant he needed to tell her to leave.

He did so and was met with a lot of resistance, but eventually she went, only to return in the early hours some days later. He felt he had to let her in.

He asked for my help to get her to leave. She refused, saying the council had told her that I’d have to get a court order to evict her.

Legal advice was that he invited her in and once he told her she was no longer welcome we could change locks when she was out.

She actually went out without a key and whilst she was gone he put her belongings in a locked shed outside, offering to open it when she needed.

That was about a week ago. I thought it was sorted. The calls in the early hours were from my tenant and the police asking if I would agree to her staying the night.

I would have said no and fortunately as they couldn’t reach me she was not allowed in.

This woman clearly has problems. I’d say she is vulnerable, but the same council that was advising her not to leave my property, whilst refusing any sort of practical assistance, would also be the ones taking action against me for running an unlicensed HMO.

The tenant is being bullied by so called friends to let her stay. He is under a lot of pressure but I’ve had to tell him that if he lets her stay I will have to take steps to evict him.

I have told him that I will speak to any official bodies that are trying to pressure him, and to the ‘friends’
I wasn’t expecting to speak to the police at 2-3 am though. Apparently they weren’t happy with me and thought the tenant should be able to take her in.

HMOs used to be called house shares and I would have been shafted if I'd not been able to find one when starting out in my career after Uni!

OP, I'd actually go full out and issue an eviction notice to the tenant who is legally in the house. That can then be shown to the friends who are applying pressure - it shows you are taking the whole thing seriously and maybe teach tenant a hard lesson

She probably told them she lives there and when they arrived they were pissed off to find they couldn't drop her at home as expected and had to find somewhere else safe to take her.

I doubt very much that the council advised her to wait to be evicted. She doesn’t have a tenancy there. I think she’s been watching too many episodes of Call The Bailiffs or similar!

Seems like you've got a solution @Poster555
This kind poster is willing to offer her a place to stay.
You can stop being so "over involved" now.
Honestly, landlords could hand their tenants a winning lottery ticket and they'd still be the bad guy to some people on MN.

I think you just have to stand firm, OP. Evict the tenant if need be but hopefully it won't come to that. Difficult situation but LL's are not social services and they can't be with all the potential penalties for not complying with legislation.

Apologies for being missing from the thread for a while. It’s been pretty hectic.

The reason the police were involved is that they removed her from another property at the owner/ tenant’s request ( not sure why, but could probably hazard a guess that she was drunk and aggressive as that has been an issue before, although only found this out from other tenants very recently). Having removed her the police needed to do some with her. She had apparently given my property address when she was charged with an earlier criminal matter.

I have spoken to my tenant, who feels bad about his friend’s situation, but really doesn’t want her sharing his room any more.

I have spent a long while on hold and speaking to various people within the police trying to get my address removed from her records. That’s not been possible as she has to be the one to change the address, but they have at least told me there is now a note to say she will not be admitted.

To the person who says I was wrong to suggest evicting the tenant. If he continues to let her in I have no option but to try to evict him for breaching subletting clause. That might be my only escape from fines and rent repayment orders from the council if things get that far. Fortunately he doesn’t want her there either.

He can, however, tell all of the ‘friends’ that I am the one stopping her staying which will hopefully relieve some of his pressure.

The situation is still tricky. I don’t know where she spent the rest of the night, but I do know that she still has nowhere to stay.

The council will not house her as she does not have the correct entry Visa. She can’t get benefits either.

I will be leaving my phone on tonight in case of further issues

Lol

Ignoring all the thread derailers.

Yanbu @Poster555 - you cannot be responsible for this individual and shouldn't be forced to turn your 4-person HMO into a 5-person one.

You need to spell it out in writing to all tenants. This will be helpful to combat the bullying from anyone putting pressure on your tenant to let her stay, and lets you be the "bad guy" for which I expect all actual tenants will be grateful.

"I am writing to formally clarify my position on the recent complications with the visitor (name) which have been disruptive to the smooth running of the property at (address)

(Address) is a 4-person HMO. Under UK law an HMO with 5 or more residents has different registration and licencing requirements to a 4-person HMO. This is one of the reasons why your tenancy agreements specify that visitors should only be staying for short periods. It is not appropriate for any of the residents to allow any visitor to stay who doesn't have another permanent place of residence where they keep their belongings. No visitor may be permitted to give (Address) as their address in any circumstances. It is absolutely inappropriate to try to force (Address) into being a 5-person HMO by these underhand means.

(Name) is not a resident of (Address) and due to the disruption that recent visits have caused, is no longer permitted to be a visitor either. Any resident who breaks their tenancy agreement by permitting visitors to start treating (Address) as home, move their posessions in, or in any other way jeopardises the status of (Address) as a 4-person HMO by facilitating an appearance that it might be becoming a 5-Person HMO will be evicted under Section 8 of the Housing Act on the grounds of Breach of Tenancy"

I am astonished at some on this thread so blithely suggesting that the OP should break the law and risk not inconsiderable penalties in order to accommodate a drunken troublemaker. Quite clearly, this is someone who shouldn’t even be in this country, and the kindest thing would be to return her to her home country and her family, if she doesn’t have a correct entry visa. I’m also amazed that someone can give an address where they have no right to live, and this then becomes their “official” address unless they - the person who has wrongly given the address in the first place- deign to remove it. OP, you have my sympathy - this is an awful situation, and nothing to do with you. Best of luck with resolving it.

Definitely throw her out. She's a stranger to you, and your own tenant doesn't want her there. Sounds like she damaged property. Wonder if she'd be desperate enough to steal too.
This is why we have charities and shelters. I can't believe she even had a key in the first place. I'd probably kick your tenant out at all for breaching contract in letting her live there and giving her keys. They'd be both out on their arses if it was me.

96% of us think YANBU @Poster555

The only thing I disagree with you on is I would be turning my phone firmly OFF tonight. It's not your problem to have to deal with.

Honestly you need to evict her friend. He's the one that keeps letting her back in.

You have to do it for the sake of the others living there. Just say all your tenants took in a vulnerable friend, seeing as you willingly accepted it with one?

Make it plain to whoever needs to know she was never your tenant and has never lived there. She isn't your responsibility and this guy is breaching his tenancy.

Evicting the original tenant under the new legislation is no easy matter now section 21 has gone. LL would have to use anti social behaviour and the bar for that is (rightfully) high. Currently upto 6 months for a court hearing and upto 6 months of a bailiff. Plus ££££££ for a specialist eviction solicitor. Section 8 has both discretionary and mandatory. You would probably have to go for discretionary - misuse of the property - which could be difficult to prove.

Op can't turn a blind eye even if she wanted to in this scenario. The police and the council are both involved and she would leave herself open to prosecution and very large fines.
Besides, the other occupants in the property don't want it and are being disturbed by the vulnerable person.
OP would be mad to allow the situation to continue!
The vulnerable person needs to find her own room in a different HMO or make other suitable arrangements for herself

Yes, this. Why on earth were the police pressurising you to take her in?

You couldn't throw anyone out without creasing your hair shirt.

How on earth is the OP over involved when the legal implications will be on her shoulders? Police involvement, LA advising this person to stay in the property knowing they'll prosecute the landlord if that happens and you think she's over involved?

Landlords often get taken to task on MN (I'm not a LL) but here's one meeting her legal and moral obligations and being told she's over-involved 🙄

I have sent formal reminders via email
( method stated in Tenancy Agreement ) regarding visitors.

The other tenants only rarely have visitors.

The other tenants are especially unhappy as the visitor is female, whereas when they moved in there were only other males, and they are more comfortable with males.

Even if it means you will be deemed to have broken the law and will be charged and incur significant penalties? I very much doubt you would

Can you though? You can’t with squatters can you?

You mean you ignore the concerns of most of your tenants and expect them to not get what they have paid for, for them to incur expenses due to damage and expect them to live in an illegal HMO?

Pretty sure you’d care about the law when you are charged and slapped with a hefty fine of thousands.

First post screws it?