AIBU to refuse a tenant's vulnerable guest staying in my HMO?

[Poster555]

NC for this. I know landlords aren’t always popular here.

I own and manage a few HMO’s in a nearby city. All legal requirements fulfilled, and normally have long term tenants.

I woke this morning to a host of missed calls.
One of the tenants, who has been fine for several years, invited his friend/ relative to stay for a temporary period as she was having issues with her landlord.
He did not discuss this with me or the other tenants.

Tenants are of course allowed visitors, including overnight for a day or two ( longer if they are visiting from abroad, etc. it’s pretty flexible).
The Tenancy Agreement is very clear that visitors visit the person, and they should never be left unsupervised in the property or given a key.

Around 6 weeks ago I was at the property for a routine treatment. The visitor was there alone. I had to ask her to leave as harmful chemicals were being used.

I had a chat with the tenant later and he explained it was a one off emergency.

It later transpired after complaints from other tenants and some unexplained damage that she was living in the property.

That was a problem. She had no primary address elsewhere and her presence took the property into the next level of HMO, meaning it needed to be registered.
The penalties for not registering when required are severe.

I told the tenant he needed to tell her to leave.

He did so and was met with a lot of resistance, but eventually she went, only to return in the early hours some days later. He felt he had to let her in.

He asked for my help to get her to leave. She refused, saying the council had told her that I’d have to get a court order to evict her.

Legal advice was that he invited her in and once he told her she was no longer welcome we could change locks when she was out.

She actually went out without a key and whilst she was gone he put her belongings in a locked shed outside, offering to open it when she needed.

That was about a week ago. I thought it was sorted. The calls in the early hours were from my tenant and the police asking if I would agree to her staying the night.

I would have said no and fortunately as they couldn’t reach me she was not allowed in.

This woman clearly has problems. I’d say she is vulnerable, but the same council that was advising her not to leave my property, whilst refusing any sort of practical assistance, would also be the ones taking action against me for running an unlicensed HMO.

The tenant is being bullied by so called friends to let her stay. He is under a lot of pressure but I’ve had to tell him that if he lets her stay I will have to take steps to evict him.

I have told him that I will speak to any official bodies that are trying to pressure him, and to the ‘friends’
I wasn’t expecting to speak to the police at 2-3 am though. Apparently they weren’t happy with me and thought the tenant should be able to take her in.

You sound very over-involved and I find it hard to believe that one long term guest would trigger a change in HMO status.

Moving from 4 to 5 does, even if she's not paying rent. What you find hard to believe about the law is, in fact, irrelevant to the law.

No OP, not unreasonable. It sounds like different bits of the council are working against each other instead of a joined up approach. Underfunding will do that. (See also: HMRC). But you are responsible for abiding by the rules set for you, and you had no alternative.

Id not throw out a vulnurable woman on the streets, no.

@MelonSorbet why do you find it hard to believe. Google has the answers 4 people fine as HMO but add one more person and that tips it into a HMO that must be registered.

Sorry @Poster555 it looks a very tricky situation. How difficult would it be to serve eviction papers on the tenant that keeps letting this woman in?

It sounds like she's told the council she actually lives there and has a tenancy agreement to get the advice she has. Of course you don't need a court order to remove someone who is effectively trespassing from your property, in fact you can call the police. There is only an 'eviction' if she actually has rights to the property, which she doesn't.

I don’t get why the police are involved.

It’s a really hard situation but you have to think of your other tenants at the HMO who are entitled to peaceful enjoyment and communal spaces shared only by the usual number of tenants.

The tenant who has allowed the woman to stay is in breach of his tenancy agreement so I think you have to be clear that if this situation continues you will have to take steps to evict him.

This might actually help him as it sounds like he is being pressured in this situation.

You are running a business and your responsibility is to provide your tenants with the quality of accommodation theyve paid for.

@wfhwfh I agree with you

The police were only annoyed because they actually had to do something with her because they couldn't dump her at your property. Stick to your guns.

Is the woman staying in the same bedroom as your legal tenant or crashing on the sofa or in an empty bedroom?

I completely understand the additional regulations required for having an additional person there. We don't even have an HMO, no locks on the bedrooms, but because its 5 students, we have to comply with almost identical regulations.

If I was another tenant, I'd be pissed off by the disruption they are causing. No advice other than stick to your guns and keep her out. Yes, its sad that she clearly has issues, they aren't your problem to solve.

What had happened in the early hours to result in the police calling you to see if she could stay there? Amazed that they'd do this

You will have to be the bad guy here. Speaking to the 'friends' is a good offer. It's not fair to your other tenants that this person is trying to behave like this.

You'd have them come and live in your spare room/shed/garden then presumably? Because that's what you're implying the OP should do - house this woman for free in her property. If she does that, she'll be legally liable for a whole host of things that could cost her financially and in other ways. Don't be so generous with other people's resources especially if you wouldn't be willing to do the same yourself.

Use your imagination. Something OP does not want to get mixed up in.

Leaving aside the fact you don’t know the regulations, what do you mean “very over-involved”? She’s a landlady dealing with an issue involving her tenants and the law around HMOs. How do you think she could responsibly be less involved? Just not answer the phone?

Yeah I probably would. I'd not throw out anyone on the streets if I had the proximity and power to help them. That's not how I have been raised and I don't give a single shit about laws or policies. I care about humans. I'd let her stay off the books.

@MelonSorbet why do you find it hard to believe? Rules are rules. And why shouldn’t OP be involved. It’s her property, her livelihood, her tenants, and it’s her who the police are calling at 3am.

There are loads of women sleeping rough on the streets right now. Why don't you go find a couple and bring them home then? If you don't have a spare room, they can kip on your sofa?

And you would start caring about laws and policies PDQ when the council fined you for running an unregistered HMO and when you had to spend thousands to go to court to evict her before anyone will help her move out and when your existing tenants move out because they can't stick living with her and you can't find anyone else to move in because you've turned your HMO into a de facto homeless shelter!

Do you have a spare room? Why isn’t there a homeless woman sleeping it in? There are definitely vulnerable women near to you that you could help.

@VointofPiew then I’d suggest to message OP privately, see if you live in the same area, and then you can accommodate this woman for free. It would be a perfect solution.

You should send OP your address and she can pass it on to the vulnerable woman. I'm sure the other tenants would also be very grateful to you.

I think she needs to go .

How can she have loads of stuff there if she was only a temporary visitor - are you sure one of your tenants hasn't sublet to her? Are there any spare/vacant rooms that she could have been occupying? When did you last inspect your HMO?

What's the opposite of "first post nails it"?

I do help homeless people in various ways depending on my proximity to the individual. That has i cluded turning a blind eye when a tenant of ours was helping out a homeless mate.

I already help various people in need of housing in one way or the other. Do you?