AIBU to refuse a tenant's vulnerable guest staying in my HMO?

[Poster555]

NC for this. I know landlords aren’t always popular here.

I own and manage a few HMO’s in a nearby city. All legal requirements fulfilled, and normally have long term tenants.

I woke this morning to a host of missed calls.
One of the tenants, who has been fine for several years, invited his friend/ relative to stay for a temporary period as she was having issues with her landlord.
He did not discuss this with me or the other tenants.

Tenants are of course allowed visitors, including overnight for a day or two ( longer if they are visiting from abroad, etc. it’s pretty flexible).
The Tenancy Agreement is very clear that visitors visit the person, and they should never be left unsupervised in the property or given a key.

Around 6 weeks ago I was at the property for a routine treatment. The visitor was there alone. I had to ask her to leave as harmful chemicals were being used.

I had a chat with the tenant later and he explained it was a one off emergency.

It later transpired after complaints from other tenants and some unexplained damage that she was living in the property.

That was a problem. She had no primary address elsewhere and her presence took the property into the next level of HMO, meaning it needed to be registered.
The penalties for not registering when required are severe.

I told the tenant he needed to tell her to leave.

He did so and was met with a lot of resistance, but eventually she went, only to return in the early hours some days later. He felt he had to let her in.

He asked for my help to get her to leave. She refused, saying the council had told her that I’d have to get a court order to evict her.

Legal advice was that he invited her in and once he told her she was no longer welcome we could change locks when she was out.

She actually went out without a key and whilst she was gone he put her belongings in a locked shed outside, offering to open it when she needed.

That was about a week ago. I thought it was sorted. The calls in the early hours were from my tenant and the police asking if I would agree to her staying the night.

I would have said no and fortunately as they couldn’t reach me she was not allowed in.

This woman clearly has problems. I’d say she is vulnerable, but the same council that was advising her not to leave my property, whilst refusing any sort of practical assistance, would also be the ones taking action against me for running an unlicensed HMO.

The tenant is being bullied by so called friends to let her stay. He is under a lot of pressure but I’ve had to tell him that if he lets her stay I will have to take steps to evict him.

I have told him that I will speak to any official bodies that are trying to pressure him, and to the ‘friends’
I wasn’t expecting to speak to the police at 2-3 am though. Apparently they weren’t happy with me and thought the tenant should be able to take her in.

I already have one homeless person staying here right now. Son's friend.

There's a homeless teen in mine. What about yours?

@VointofPiew would you allow the homeless friend to live there rent free indefinitely? Wouldn’t that be a bit unfair on the rent-paying tenants? Or can they all live there rent free?

Because she was drunk/drugged up on the streets I expect and they’d tried to take her “home” rather than to the cells?

OP, you are running a business, your other tenants have the right to expect that the tenancy conditions they abide by are applied to all tenants, and they have a safe place to live.

Whatever is going on in this girl's life, it's not your place to fix. As hard as I would find it, I think you are doing the right thing. And the tenant who keeps letting her stay does need a reminder that he is putting his own tenancy at risk. You could also suggest to your tenant that the next time they come under pressure from friends to let her stay at yours, that they turn it back on the friends and suggests she stays with them.

Why dont any of them live in your actual house then? thats pretty unkind - seems you want to bash others for not housing vulnerable people and yet you dont have any living in your house yourself.

Thats hypocritical.

As PP have suggested- why dont you PM the OP and put this woman up in your house?- it's a perfect solution

@VointofPiew are you a private landlord? Private landlords are a big part of the housing problem in this country, putting up rent costs, and removing properties from the potential social housing pool. Would it not be better if you gave your house to the council?

i care about humans too. However i also care about the law and my legal responsibilities, as im sure the op does and if i were her i’d think about my moral responsibilities ie the woman is causing damage to my property and upsetting people.

So i would expect the council, who have a legitimate responsibility to house her, to step up and get on with it instead of trying to pass the buck elsewhere.

i would issue the tenant in question with notice in writing. but (verbally only) tell him if he gets her to leave and not let her in again EVER AGAIN NOT EVEN TO USE THE LOO ETC you will rescind it in writing. That you do not want him out at this stage and this strategy is a means to an end.

That way he can show her and his so called pals who are telling him to keep her there (likely so they don’t have to deal with her, presumably thats where she stayed when she left for five days or whatever it was and caused mayhem there) that he is now out because of her. He may choose to bundle her out the door. i know i would. or both could attend the council as homeless due to the eviction letter. During which time you could change the locks and not let her in again.

If they needed to, yeah. I'd try and get them on the books through benefits at some point if it was possible. If not, oh well. My principles are important to me.

If the police are insisting you let her in and the advice she’s apparently obtained is that you need to evict her, that would suggest she’s not being totally honest whilst engaging with services and she’s telling them she actually lives there. This won’t do her any favours in the long term as they obviously aren’t treating her like a homeless person with nowhere to go.

I would tell the tenant that if he lets her in again I would be unfortunately taking action to evict him. I lived in a HMO straight out of uni and it was hell on earth. It was supposed to be working professionals who wanted a quiet lifestyle only but we had one house mate who would let anyone in and they obviously had issues with drugs and alcohol, they brought all kinds of trouble to the door. It made my mental health awful. I left as soon as I could. The police coming to the door to insist the tenant let her in after everyone had already complained about her being there would have really done me in. You sound like a decent proactive landlord and you have to think about your actual tenants here.

We are landlords but only rent to people on a low income/benefits. We have 2 properties at the mo. One HMO, one house. HMO mostly has single homeless people l, house has single parent and 3 kids (one disabled). That family got the place through the council waiting list but it is officially temporary. They can stay as long as they want though.

HMOs in my local area have ruined my life. Depression, anxiety due to antisocial behaviour and people with drug issues etc. Threatened, witnessed a stabbing, it’s awful. There are 3 HMOs opposite me and one a few doors away. I hate them.

We do. I have my son's friend here atm.

Do you not feel bad about changing the character of the street where you’ve placed the HMO with council tenants?

edit to add have lived in social housing and even homeless hostel growing up so I’m not being snobby about it. Just personal experience from 4 HMOs going up near my current house all with single tenants.

Well I don’t have a spare room. And nor am I suggesting OP risks her income and a criminal prosecution for an unlicensed HMO.

https://england.shelter.org.uk/housing_advice/homelessness/emergency_housing_from_the_council/how_to_get_emergency_housing

If they are able, your tenant could help his friend make a homelessness application. Or find a local homelessness charity that may have an outreach team to help advocate with the council.

Don't blame you, OP, although council often offer just a sleeping bag and tent so can see why she wants to stay.

You rent to people on low income/benefits via the council who pay you above the odds rent and guarantee your rent payments even in void periods. It's great that you do this as the council needs private properties like this but don't make out you're taking a rent cut or doing it from the goodness of your heart.

@VointofPiew I’m not a landlord (not my thing, I don’t feel a need to own extra properties, nor do I have enough money, like you clearly do), but I imagine the rules are quite strict. OP has said that an extra person will take her over a certain threshold that requires additional registration/licensing, which presumably she doesn’t have. That would surely mean that she wouldn’t be complying with regulations eg fire, for example. So the entire property and the other tenants’ contracts are at risk.

I think it’s wrong of you to stand in judgement of someone who is trying to run a business, and I also think that if you have such a heart of gold, you should run your extra house (or houses) as free hostels. Put your money where your mouth is, rather than telling OP that she should risk her livelihood by breaking the rules.

It's in Leyton. Honestly it probably improved the area

@VointofPiew rules and laws exist for a reason. Your rush to be "kind" to some individuals is very unkind on their housemates and the larger area. No-one likes a dodgy HMO landlord who thinks the rules are for other mugs.

This was my first post.

"Id not throw out a vulnurable woman on the streets, no."

So normal people aren’t allowed to want a family home in Leyton because they don’t have money to live in a “naice” area? I might be biased because I live in a similar area in London. When I bought it was an ok street, and was what I could afford. Since I bought, 4 HMOs have become my neighbours and it’s totally changed the fabric of the street. But hey, they probably improved the area because it wasn’t posh to start with 🤷‍♀️

Abide by the law, OP, and ignore all the pressure from the 'be kind' brigade. It will be your head (bank balance) on the block if the authorities take action against you, any 'advisors' will have long since disappeared.

Just because someone is vulnerable does not mean they are safe, and I'd say that this woman is both vulnerable and a danger/nuisance whatever. But - she's not your problem and don't allow your tenant, the police or anyone make her so.

You will have to play the bad guy. As others have said, tell your tenant he will be evicted if he lets her stay again. Why should he suffer for her? Why should you?

Surely the woman has no rights to be there at all so the council are well out of order.