AIBU to refuse a tenant's vulnerable guest staying in my HMO?

[Poster555]

NC for this. I know landlords aren’t always popular here.

I own and manage a few HMO’s in a nearby city. All legal requirements fulfilled, and normally have long term tenants.

I woke this morning to a host of missed calls.
One of the tenants, who has been fine for several years, invited his friend/ relative to stay for a temporary period as she was having issues with her landlord.
He did not discuss this with me or the other tenants.

Tenants are of course allowed visitors, including overnight for a day or two ( longer if they are visiting from abroad, etc. it’s pretty flexible).
The Tenancy Agreement is very clear that visitors visit the person, and they should never be left unsupervised in the property or given a key.

Around 6 weeks ago I was at the property for a routine treatment. The visitor was there alone. I had to ask her to leave as harmful chemicals were being used.

I had a chat with the tenant later and he explained it was a one off emergency.

It later transpired after complaints from other tenants and some unexplained damage that she was living in the property.

That was a problem. She had no primary address elsewhere and her presence took the property into the next level of HMO, meaning it needed to be registered.
The penalties for not registering when required are severe.

I told the tenant he needed to tell her to leave.

He did so and was met with a lot of resistance, but eventually she went, only to return in the early hours some days later. He felt he had to let her in.

He asked for my help to get her to leave. She refused, saying the council had told her that I’d have to get a court order to evict her.

Legal advice was that he invited her in and once he told her she was no longer welcome we could change locks when she was out.

She actually went out without a key and whilst she was gone he put her belongings in a locked shed outside, offering to open it when she needed.

That was about a week ago. I thought it was sorted. The calls in the early hours were from my tenant and the police asking if I would agree to her staying the night.

I would have said no and fortunately as they couldn’t reach me she was not allowed in.

This woman clearly has problems. I’d say she is vulnerable, but the same council that was advising her not to leave my property, whilst refusing any sort of practical assistance, would also be the ones taking action against me for running an unlicensed HMO.

The tenant is being bullied by so called friends to let her stay. He is under a lot of pressure but I’ve had to tell him that if he lets her stay I will have to take steps to evict him.

I have told him that I will speak to any official bodies that are trying to pressure him, and to the ‘friends’
I wasn’t expecting to speak to the police at 2-3 am though. Apparently they weren’t happy with me and thought the tenant should be able to take her in.

Where do you think eg students should live? Why do you want to deny them the benefits and cost savings of community living? I know a lot of students who have been very keen to share properties with their friends rather than be isolated in little studios. I also know some young professionals who think the same.

The council gave the correct information based on what the woman told them, which was that she had a tenancy agreement for the property. The LL later clarified to them that she didn't.

It’s also not up to the council to give bad advice - OP doesn’t need a court order to evict this woman because she’s not a tenant, she’s trespassing.

@ThreadGuardDog why are you so keen to find fault with the council? The council gave her the correct advice for the situation she told them. That she told them a pack of lies isn't the fault of the council. The LL clarified the situation when they were contacted about it, and confirmed she didn't have, and never had, a tenancy with the LL.

Then why don’t you care about the other humans, the tenants who are paying rent and having to deal with her shennanigans????? HOw many homeless people have you picked up from the streets and taken home with you ? How dare you have a comfy bed when others are sleeping rough??

TBH I am not sure what she told the council then.

The gist of my telephone conversation with her was her insisting that she had been told that she was not a trespasser as the police brought her to the flat. She could have claimed that she was a tenant to the council but just not mentioned that to me as I knew the situation I suppose.

The first indication I had that she said she was a tenant was when I spoke to the SW on Saturday.

Ah I was going off this in a previous post

The woman basically told a pack of lies. She has claimed that she thought she had a joint tenancy with the actual tenant. That’s easy to disprove

If she's told people she's got a tenancy she'd be told that a LL has to follow formal eviction processes. It would be very odd for anyone to tell her she'd have to wait to be evicted if she had told them she was sofa surfing or visiting.

Well that would be nice for the other tenants who don't want her and who are paying for the privilege of living where they do. When would you stop housing all these vulnerable women? We pay taxes and it's down to councils to do their jobs and find homes for people. And there are shelters as well for vulnerable women who eg have run away from an abusive partner.

As for landlords, I have no problem with landlords who provide a home. I have major problems with people who own second homes and holiday homes, or have an empty property going to waste. We could probably bring a million homes plus back into residential use if people weren't so damn greedy.

If you have multiple HMO’s could you not find a room in another one?

I wouldn't - she sounds like she would be a problem tennant

You might not "give a shit" about the law or the legal system and be very adaptable to breaking the law but other people are not. It's not you who has to deal with the police, the other tenants, the council, the one who let her in and the woman herself. Maybe you could offer some help or solutions rather than trying to make OP feel guilty with your throw away comments.

Give us your address and we’ll Send some over to Kip on your couch.

I have 3 HMO’s.

All are occupied by long term male tenants. I very rarely have a vacancy.

Even if she hadn’t already caused me issues I couldn’t offer a tenancy to this woman as she has no source of income.

She's not abusing our hospitality! No recourse to public funds means she's explicitly denied our 'hospitality' - as PPs have explained, it's the case for the majority of arrivals to the UK.

She's abusing OP's tenant's personal hospitality, no-one else's.

The social worker both insisted she was vulnerable and shouldn’t be homeless and also that she did not meet their criteria for help.

Christ, I would hate that job. Having to abandon people to be abused / exploited / abducted / raped / robbed. I understand the need for limits, but it must be so hard to do.

Your sons teenage friend staying in your family home where you have all made that decision is extremely different to OPs situation.

She would be putting herself at legal and financial risk. If she chose to take that risk, that would be her decision. However there are other paying tenants that do not want this troubled woman in their house. These are the people OP has responsibility for, not a random woman who wants to stay for free and increasing the bills for the others.

If the friend was the only tenant, that is also a different situation. Rules are there to protect the tenants with a legal contract in place

Social services have a duty to assess her in law if she's vulnerable and especially if she's presenting with mental/physical health issues regardless of the cause. If she has just moved into the council area or has no ties to the area the local authority do not have to give her accomodation and she should return to the last area she lived in for at least six months. If that's not the last place she stayed for six months and she has been moving around, Social Services may be able to place her in charity accommodation. If she has severe mental health issues, Social Services will liaise with Health (or should) to see if a temporary hold for assessment is appropriate. If none of this applies, there will probably be homeless shelters or independent services in the area that can assist but first a referral mus be made to Social Services to start the ball rolling. Your tenant knows her so would be best placed to do this or an advocate working on his behalf if he isn't capable of doing it himself. Take no notice of the police as they just want the matter closed and aren't really interested in anything other than that. Advise your tennant to contact them if there any threats or coersion. They are duty bound to look into it. Best of luck.

I agree.
I think the woman was with her, rather than it being a telephone conversation.
She apparently told the social worker she would self harm again ( I don’t know anything more about this), and she still couldn’t do anything to help her. It must have been so hard to have to turn her away.

The vast majority of the services you refer to don't apply in this case because the woman has no recourse to public funds. Shelters and temporary accommodations are funded by benefits which she cannot claim. She is not owed any support by a council where she's lived before for the same reason. The only exception would be if she was exceptionally vulnerable, such as a life threatening health condition or not having mental capacity for day to day decisions, in which case services can be provided on a human rights basis.
That isn't the LLs issue but it's the reason why it's harder for the tenant to turn her away. She likely would be able to get help to return to her country of origin but I'm guessing that's not what she wants to do.

🙄🙄🙄

Way back in the mists of time, I spent a couple of years renting bedsits. They were what we now call HMOs. People need economical, safe places to live! Mine were fine. (The shared bathrooms could be a bit off-putting, depending on neighbours.)

Many were family businesses making something of inherited property. Some were run by awful mega-landlords. The reason we now have a defined category of HMO, with stringent rules, is to avoid recurrences of the Peter Rachman situation. There are still bad landlords and good ones, but it's ridiculous to label them parasites. Where would you have low earners live?

Given the cost of renting now, it's not just low earners who are living in house shares either. I moved to my town ten years ago and rented a 2bed house for £560 a month. Now I see house shares going for £600 a month, and it's rare to see a (tiny, 2 up 2 down terrace with a communal garden) go for less than £950. I know prices go up, but local wages certainly haven't gone up that much. It would be really difficult for a single person to have their own place, and many couples would struggle, not just those on minimum wage.

This situation seems never ending.

She is again with the police and has been on the phone begging my tenant to confirm she can stay at his address so that she can be released.

He phoned me, sounding very upset. I had to say no. He fully knows the reasons why. There really was no reason to involve me. I am slightly concerned that he might turn out to be the ‘weak’ link in keeping her out.

I said I would talk to the police. I have explained that this woman cannot stay at the address, or use it for any official purposes. They were surprisingly ok with this.

Have I missed something, Isn't she vulnerable? Didn't the OP say that? If you live in a mansion but choose not to Social Services has a safeguarding duty to people referred to them because of vulnerability.

I would not make a report to the police for harassment. Report her for using your rental properties to harass you and your tenants. Tell the police that you don’t ever want to be contacted again, and you want her kept away from your property.