To not want to spend more money on horses?

[tommyknocker1982]

My wife and I are at loggerheads on this, so I'm looking for outside opinions...

Bit of background - we're in our 40's and both work, and we have 2 daughters, 15 and 12. I don't ride but my wife and daughters do. We bought our first horse a couple of years ago. I was firmly against it, but my family appealed constantly, and my wife provided a breakdown of the costs, which turned out to be a wild underestimate.

A year later, that horse had some health issues and my wife said he wasn't suitable for our youngest daughter. So, I switched to work full time and we bought a second horse. Since then, the horse related costs have escalated endlessly (vets, van hire, trips to the saddlery...) and I'd guess we now spend around £25k a year on horses.

I've agreed to getting a 4x4 and horse trailer, but the next ask is that my wife wants us to move to a "house with land", so that she can keep the horses at home.

And this is where we clash. Acres of land in the south east is expensive, and would mean either moving into a worse house than we have now, or taking out a huge mortgage. I don't want an equestrian lifestyle. I don't want the extra maintenance, I don't like the smell, and I don't want to live in a rural backwater so I can have animals staring at me through my kitchen window. Am I being unreasonable to say "no, I don't want to spend any more on horses"?

I Am Being Unreasonable - I should agree to my wife's demand. Live a life I don't want, and probably face more escalating costs even with them living with us at home.

I Am NOT Being Unreasonable - I say "enough is enough". We spend enough already and need to draw a line under it.

Your wife is being unreasonable having 2 horses- she really needs 3 to avoid separation anxiety

But you don’t need to spend 25K
I haven’t rtft but if she’s keen she needs to go DIY or assisted DIY every day before or after work or rent some land and doesn’t need to move house and have them at home.

Happy wife, happy life especially where horses are involved. Did you know she was horsey before you married her? If so, it was always going to come out sooner or later I’m afraid. It’s just in our bones.

???
Or were you being sarcastic?

Said mainly in jest :)
Although if she’s planning to keep 2 at home, a third even if a shetland or similar, can be a good idea to avoid one being left alone when the other goes off riding.

Full livery these days doesn't usually mean that the horse is exercised by the stables. They are probably still riding during the week.

On the 2 horse issue I've always taught my horses to be ok with being left on their own. It's perfectly achievable with 99.9% of them.

They likely ride themselves most days , I used to have 3 horses in full livery I still went everyday unless I was away , the full livery just meant I didn’t have to be there at set times twice a day or do early mornings once I’d had my children .

To clear something up, I was the person who highlighted a historic thread on the tack room board, where a woman was highlighting her DP's concern about her horse-related costs and she was also claiming tax-credits for her daughter.

To be clear, the MNer's horse related costs were not about children's ponies but an adult horse of her own. It was clear from the thread that her budget was tight and meeting these horse-related costs left her with little room in her budget and little financial resilience for the future. I can't remember all the details, but I think she was renting and there was not an involved father in the picture. It was before the cost-of-living crisis, so the situation would probably not have improved since

I still think the person in question was 'delusional' to think that she could afford a horse and stand by that, as clearly she could not easily afford it.

Yes, her daughter's current cost of living was covered but what about saving for future expenses for that child? Driving lessons, university, transport costs to college (no funding post 16), or even putting that money into her own pension...

If a parent's income is low enough that the state considers their child to be in need of additional financial support via tax credits then I am not sure it is entirely appropriate to be spending part of the remainder of that income on an expensive, ongoing hobby for a parent. Yes, everyone should be able to have a hobby and feel fulfilled, but tax-credits (as they were) were intended to enable children on a lower income to have an average family lifestyle, not cross-subsidise an expensive adult hobby or lifestyle. I don't think many taxpayers would disagree with that, whether that person's hobby is expensive dogs, holidays, classic cars, fine art, horses or sporting season tickets.

The key issue with horses is that you are locked into that expense for the foreseeable future. A horse is costing money every day or week that it is alive and this funding must be provided, otherwise it is a case of animal cruelty and/or neglect. Whereas other hobbies are easily adaptable to changing financial circumstances: holidays can be postponed, assets can be sold, tickets not renewed and classic cars can be stored in a lockup until you have the money to repair them.

I have nothing against horses and quite like them myself. However I do think that horse ownership really belongs to a bygone era, as costs and lifestyles have changed so much. But if you have plenty of money, go for it! If a single person on a low income wants to afford a horse in a simple way (some good advice on this thread) and manage that by having a very simple lifestyle in other respects, fine, go for it! But the financial impacts on other people in the family, especially children, need to be considered.

It depends how dedicated you are to your marriage- your wife will clearly not be happy without horses in her life, that said you don't need a second horse a horse trailer or an equine enabled property for your wife to have horses in her life.
You need a long discussion and to slim down the equine related spend.
A compromise is what you need your wife is asking for complete surrender.

I repeat that is me. I’ve responded to this earlier in the thread. We still have the pony (he’s just a pony verging on horse) he’s in excellent shape and become amazing. We aren’t out competing every weekend like some due to cost bit when we do it’s so worth it as the dc are doing amazing. Re the impact of the dc’s lifestyle, horses are a lifestyle - their social life revolves around it. It is their choice and it keeps them active and busy.

Kindly, Its none of your business how people spend their money - would you rather I spend it on holidays and takeaways? On going out? A different hobby for the DC What is an acceptable use for spare income of working people who claim universal credit due to being on a single income. It’s not like I wouldn’t claim it if we didn’t have the horse!

Both my dc share the same horse so it’s 2 hobbies in one. The benefits of it for them i don’t even know where to begin to. The confidence, resilience, consideration for others, work ethic. The fresh air and fitness. The friends they have made. That’s the impact it’s had on them. They are still well fed, suitably dressed and have all the things they need and our house is warm. We just don’t get away on holidays that aren’t pony club camp or have meals out often. They take packed lunch instead of school dinner. Dd16 now has a job so always has money to have fun with her friends. Dd13 has a little Vinted business going so I don’t need to give either pocket money.

I did see your response upthread, but couldn’t find it again so couldn’t quote it, however I honestly don’t think you were the person in question. The circumstances were different, there was one child not two, and it was quite a few years ago.

Yes, her daughter's current cost of living was covered but what about saving for future expenses for that child? Driving lessons, university, transport costs to college (no funding post 16), or even putting that money into her own pension...

The thing about the future is it's not guaranteed. The present is here, right now, with it's endless possibilities to be enjoyed. Not everyone with limited funds wants to spend it all on long term goals for a future that they might be unlucky enough not to have. Whilst even if they do survive to old age, they'll have spent their entire lives, their "present", not living their dream in any capacity - because they were always so busy saving/planning for the future.

I'm not the person you're talking about but I may as well have been. If I'd done the sensible thing and waited for financial security before purchasing a horse, I'd never have had one. As it was I had a very happy couple of decades before my health failed. I don't regret all the things I didn't do. I would definitely have regretted not buying a horse and living my dream whilst I could.

It all comes down to mindset really. IMO buying horses is like having children - there's never a right/perfect time to have them and unless you're filthy rich you can never really afford it, but if it's what you want you bite the bullet and do it anyway, resolving to make it work however you can. Poor people aren't duty bound to live the lives rich people deem suitable for them, they have free will and their own beliefs just the same as anyone else.

Anyway OP @tommyknocker1982 I think you have more power than you realise.

She would not be able to support this lifestyle alone.

She would be vanishingly unlikely to find another partner who would happily support the land, housing and stabling needs of a woman with two children and two horses.

Push back against this ludicrous plan!

@PatchworkCow
I am sorry to hear that your health has failed and you can’t now do the things that you enjoy. No one deserves that. I had a close family member die relatively young and I do regret that there were things they missed out upon. Not for lack of funds, but lack of time and opportunity.

I hope that you, personally, enjoyed your horsey years. But the world is changing (especially economically) and I still have questions in my mind about whether horses, in general, are a sensible financial choice for many households, as this thread in itself shows!

But you could make that argument for anything . Why spend money on a yearly holiday , when you could put it in your pension ? Why are you shopping at Waitrose when you could shop at Lidl and put the rest in your child’s uni fund ? Why have a decent car , when you could run around in an old banger and put the rest into a savings account ? If you can make it work, why shouldn’t anyone who isn’t rich , have horses ?

Carl Hester started by riding a donkey on Sark . One of my horsey peers daughters is an international show jumper , but I remember when her mum and I would spend cold and wet weekends eating pot noodles for lunch on our diy livery yard at 15 . My dad drove a breakdown truck , and we had my pony on a shoestring , rolling barrels of water down the A3 in the snow when our water froze . 40 years later , and I now have my own house with land and stables , but maybe you think I should have stayed true to my roots because horses aren’t for people like me .

Kindly, Its none of your business how people spend their money - would you rather I spend it on holidays and takeaways? On going out? A different hobby for the DC What is an acceptable use for spare income of working people who claim universal credit due to being on a single income. It’s not like I wouldn’t claim it if we didn’t have the horse!

She's one of those benefits bashers who thinks everyone should tick off her list of essentials before they have anything she considered as luxury. Personally I found the "driving lessons, university and pension" checklist a joke.

It's so middle class to consider driving lessons to be a parental responsibility. I paid for my own driving lessons in my 20s when I could afford it (chose to buy a horse instead of a car with a windfall and take the bus everywhere).
I didn't go to university because I'm someone who "works to live" not "lives to work", so what did I want a degree for? It would have just delayed my horse ownership time 😁. University isn't a given or a necessity, lots of DC either can't afford to go or they go and fund themselves through it with grants and loans and part time jobs etc. University is a lifestyle choice, and again, it's so middle class to assume it's a parental responsibility to make it happen and that it'll definitely be happening.
As for pension, a lifetime of working affords a full state pension and a small private one, no need to bung every last penny into a £401k just because some millionaire somewhere decided that's what's needed to continue to afford the caviar on their toast each morning. Live whilst you're young and can enjoy it, what's the point in saving for a luxurious retirement you'll likely be too sick or too old and creaky to properly enjoy? That's if you even make it that far with the ever increasing pension age.

If they are currently 5 day livery why don’t you suggest that they do full DIY for a decent period (including winter) before you’ll consider moving.

The reality might be enough of a shock to the system to knock the idea on the head.

And to address some of your concerns @AnonyLonnymouse my dd has a job as I said in my last response to you and will be quite able to pay for her own driving lessons. As it happens though, my parents will gift her a sum at 17 to put towards them as they have will all their other grandchildren. We are in Scotland so DD will get her uni fees free and will continue with a job as many have to do too. My pension might be basic but seeing I have 2 jobs I do have one. I’m willing to give up having more to give my dc these amazing opportunities. Our pony is better looked after than many leisure horses as I have the knowledge to do so and I don’t scrimp where it’s needed. You clearly don’t actually know much about horses and their basic needs to be making the judgement you are

Well yes, I am middle class but I can't really do anything about that. 😂Nor am I going to apologise for it. I have also spent a good proportion of my career working in public service in disadvantaged communities where horses, let alone owning horses, really were the very last thing on anyone's mind.

My politics are centre-left and I am certainly not a benefit basher but the overall UK welfare benefit bill currently outweighs tax receipts. How sustainable is that?

I suspect that, with increasing digitisation, there will be increased scrutiny of the lifestyle of anyone who claims public funds. Is that entirely unreasonable? The future might involve benefits being paid into an online or app-based digital account which can only be used for certain purposes (such as food, health or education-related costs) rather like the tax-free childcare account.

Nor would I underestimate what changes a different government might bring...

Anyway, this is all getting off the OP's problem. I would be interested to hear if he has come to any conclusions.

Maybe @tommyknocker1982 wife has decided to claim his life insurance 🤔

Well in the very unlikely event that happens I guess I’ll have to sell the pony. I paid 1200 for him on a payment plan he’s now worth around 12k due to the work we’ve put in so he’d get a lovely home, however I think we are a little way off the government telling me I should just be spending my money of booze and fags, not a wholesome lifestyle for my dc 😆.

Hi, to be honest, I was half expecting to be torn apart when I posted the original question - Mumsnet can be a tough crowd for male posters, especially with all the horse lovers on these forums...

But it has been genuinely helpful reading the posts from those who already keep horses at home. Whether I can persuade my family that it's a bad idea remains to be seen.

I think it also doesn't help that the girls watch YouTube videos by Harlow White and others, where they stroll into the stables in the morning in their pyjamas to muck out (hair and make-up already done) and think this is typical equestrian life. Maybe if we end up with land I'll start my own "Real Equestrian" YouTube channel for the dads where I'm fixing electric fences and replacing felt on stable roofs in the middle of winter!

I’m now wondering if this is actually just made up. There is no way you are being serious, nobody is this passive.

You cannot be seriously considering an equestrian life when you are clearly very aware that neither wife nor daughters have the slightest clue of what it actually entails.

That last comment of mine was obviously a joke - I'm not going to be fixing any stables or electric fences!

Look up skint dressage daddy on Facebook - his child has given up now but for years he was in the thick of the reluctant horse dad world and is pretty funny!

OP, have you actually sat all 3 of them down and told them there is not enough money coming in to pay for more than they already have?

My cousins were horse mad, so I can understand where they're coming from. They cost my uncle a not-so-small fortune and he waved bye-bye to early retirement.