AIBU to think upper middle class professionals downplay how much they game education?

[MyCyanAnt]

I can’t be the only one who has noticed this. I went to genuinely average comprehensive schools and had parents who just dgaf like most in UK. I went to medical school where it seemed like this upbringing put you in a small minority, now an ultra high earner from own business but still do part time work as a GP. DC are 12 and 14.

Whenever the topic of education comes up with other doctors/professionals they will say stuff like it’s the child not the school who determines the outcome, we’re not pushing DC, we’re letting DC pick their school etc

However when it comes down to it none of them ever put their money where their mouth is. It won’t always be Eton but it will almost always be either a private, grammar or high performing comp in expensive catchment area instead of a genuinely average comp.

It’s a similar story with paying for tutors and other parents DC being interested in prestigious but completely unrelated careers e.g. Doctor or investment banking who have obviously been guided by parents.

I do the same but I feel like I’m an outlier in that I don’t lie about it, I’m obviously paying/gaming things so DC are much more likely to get a top job. I don’t see what’s wrong with admitting it yet it’s such a sensitive subject with some.

100% agree. They want to think it's a level playing field while buying their child every advantage they possibly can. And then they pretend they and their children achieved it totally on merit and that anyone else could too.

You're honest. They're deluded.

Yes, that includes the one in Liverpool I mentioned above. It is classed as a comprehensive but it is nothing like the comp I went to in the 80s.

Yes, I am talking about people who cosplay as being working class or not having good cultural capital when they do. Often times they are doing to this to fit in with their desired peers or they feel self conscious about their position. I’m not trying to moralise this behaviour because I think there are different reasons why people become like this, but either way, they will be vocal about not caring about prestigious schools or certain career paths while making moves that contradict this. Often times, people like this will genuinely have other values that they prioritise the same as prestigious education (I can relate to this), and a “good school” may also look different to them than others, but they are still going to use their resources to put their kids in the best position possible.

Chemistry is a subject where private tuition at A-level is important.

DC didn't get it, knew the material but not the exam technique - with some tough consequences at the time. Thrived as a scientist in academia and beyond but the first choice Uni was brutal.

The clearing choice was a more highly-regarded institution (still Russell group) at which they were very happy and in which city they still live.

Op you definitely have a chip on your shoulder. I send my child to private school to give her as many opportunities as possible, which include the 2 options that you have cited above HOWEVER these are not the sole 2 reasons.

I think you would benefit from broadening your mind. Also this whole class thing is bullshit, I bet your defintion of UMC varies wildly compared with the next person.

They are walking cliches of privileged arrogance. So it makes total sense that they think their offspring have some magic DNA that makes them superior to the riff raff.

I work with them too and all I can say is at least you are also privileged now op. I’m part of the riff raff and the daily micro aggressions of the unconscious snobbery I experience is dehumanising and horrible.

I disagree that other parents don’t care though but I think many don’t “understand” the system eg tutoring m, how to access bursaries etc.

But that’s not “gaming” the system is it? That’s just making a choice available to you. Gaming the system is when people take out fake tenancies to get their kids into a high performing state school when they’re wildly out of catchment etc. Having choices, and using them, isn’t playing the system at all.

It’s an English thing, I think. You’re overwhelmingly terribly anxious about your children not making it in the world. Other cultures just mostly send their child t9 the nearest school because they’re mostly much of a muchness. We did actually let DS choose his secondary. It’s fine, but nothing special.

Um, some other cultures are way more overt about valuing education, getting their kids into the best possible unis, directing them in what subjects/professions to do. I think we're relatively relaxed. The fact that there are 'average comps' that most people go to would support that. It might be English to downplay things, but I think being anxious for your kids to be able to do their best is totally fine and normal, esp given how hard it is with things like SEN provision and teacher shortages.

As someone who's had 2 ND DC in the local average comp and needed tutors for both to help them not drown, I think it's OP who's being disingenuous. There's a lot of need for parents to take an interest and give extra support. Letting DC 'find their way' does not mean leaving them at the mercy of a struggling system and just trusting it will turn out fine.

I also went to a (less than) average comp and I know it's taken me 10 years longer to find my way in the world and do well in my profession simply because of OP's attitude that it'll be fine if you leave kids be and don't give extra support or direction. Took me forever to figure it out on my own while others surged ahead. The world isn't so meritocratic, there's a lot of who dares wins which is the opposite of the 'take what you're given and be grateful for it' attitude that can proliferate from the go to your local comp and leave them to it approach.

Yup, there are many known comps that are in the richest parts of the country that move very differently. That’s why you have some parents who are willing to buy a flat over a house just to be able to afford to live in those catchment areas.

People can be very misleading about how they talk about comprehensive schools. They also love to downplay how much rich people care about school with the stat that most go to comprehensive schools, as though they are going to the same ones as the rest of us lol.

I don’t think they realise what they’re doing, I don’t think they realise what advantages they have and I don’t think they realise what reality is for others.

Having said that, I don’t have children, but I’m fairly sure that if I did, they’d be my first priority and I’d have the sharp elbows of most other parents. That’s why we need a national and fair system that everyone trusts will do the best for their child. And the commitment by the taxpayers and the government to pay to keep it that way.

OTOH I know several generations of different families who have been to state schools, in different areas in England. All those that have done well have done well because their parents valued education, whatever their financial, working or cultural background. It comes down to the home environment, so schools have to be able to make good what doesn’t happen at home. That’s the way as a society we can have a decent and educated citizenship.

I’m also against the massive competitive aspect of most schools, which tells children that they only do well if somebody else doesn’t do well. The research shows that cooperative and group learning is learning that sticks and benefits children but teachers don’t seem to know that and government policy ignores it.

Sorry I don’t think that really answers your question OP.

It is definitely the child not the school. My parents never pushed me at all and even did my homework for me as a child. They sent me to good schools in the neighbourhood but not private (they were tempted too, but didn’t want me to feel pressure!)

now I’m doing a PhD at a RG university. I’m driven by an internalised pressure and I’ve done well enough I think. I’m also a working member of a well known society as a volunteer and I’m genuinely quite outgoing and well rounded (as in, I’ve got hobbies and other pursuits and I was balanced academically at school).

however I’ve got crippling anxiety from a need to succeed and imposter syndrome. And I’m a people pleaser (and an absolute doormat). So if I’d been pressured I think I would have exploded :(

Having educated my children entirely in the private sector, I have never come across a single parent who made the statements you reference. Most people are entirely clear that they have made choices to ensure their children have the best education. They do make choices within the private sector, that the children contribute to, but I don’t think there is any suggestion that an under performing state school was ever on the list of options ?

So half come from comprehensive schools so won't be shocked to come across someone who grew up on a council estate. I know what OP means because DH went to a sink comprehensive and now works in a very competitive field but I don't think anyone is very aware of his schooling. Most people are too busy thinking about themselves.

There is a lot of truth in what you say but there are exceptions out there too of which we are one. Both sector employees and with 4 kids there was no hope of sending them all private/public school. They all went to the local comp which was even in special measures for a few years and all succeeded academically - think medic, Oxbridge PhD, Russell Group 1st class honours type thing. We never paid a penny for a tutor either. You need to have faith in your children but believe it or not most state school pupils come out fine in the end. A lot of our social circle sent their kids to independents and would justify it by saying that their kids were “special” in some way and wouldn’t cope at a state school for some reason. Basically they were in it for the social benefits and so their kids didn’t have to mix with ordinary kids.

Why not be open about it though?

I live near some of the London grammars and find immigrant parents are far more open about trying to get a place, what they do etc.

it’s the child not the school is complete bollocks

I think most UK parents will just send their DC to the closest school
what make you think that? All I have seen is parents moving specifically to an area to be in the right catchment

so I think most is not really realistic. And good for them, if your kids education and future is not one of the priorities to pick where you live, it's a bit sad. What else is important?

But gaming education is not really accurate either.

I understand what you’re saying. It’s almost vulgar to say that you have a razor sharp ambition for your kids to do well to do academically and in life generally. It feels elitist, so it’s fluffed up.
I went to a comprehensive school in a bad area …where no one expected you to achieve. We send our son to private school. We’re not wealthy, the fees take up a big chunk of my salary …but I think it’s worth the sacrifice and will give him a good start in life. A better start than I had.
I don’t talk about it though as you get judged as being elitist, in society generally, even my own working class family are critical. So I get why they fluff it up!

Most Brits dont encourage their kids to do well at school?

Do you have evidence to back this up?

A lot of people have said this now and I think it would depend on the definition.

I’d guess the average parent will tell kids to do homework but not do much to help them with it, maybe if they’re doing really well at school suggest they apply to a good uni but do no research/guidance into it. Expectations won’t be high regarding career/university and when it comes to school they’ll just be sent to the most convenient one or the one they genuinely pick which will normally be where their friends go.

This isn’t to say they’re bad parents, they will generally loving, caring, supportive etc. This is what I meant and would class as not giving a f but maybe this was too harshly put. They are still good parents overall.

Moving for catchment areas, tutoring, pushing careers, forcing extra study, threads about Oxbridge/medicine etc all things common on mumsnet aren’t remotely normal. When I was at medical school I worked as a HCA part time and sometimes studying came up, many patients, potentially the majority, didn’t even know the medicine degree meant training to be a doctor and thought it was something like drug development.

Because they want people to view their DCs achievements as being due to their inate intelligence. Its pretty obvious that someone like the OP who achieves with the most basic of input has higher natural ability than someone who can only achieve similar when they are placed in optimum circumstances, and recieve extra bought in support. They don't want to admit their DC are in the second category.

It’s not gaming. But it is offering an education that puts their DC at an advantage over other children. It’s why private school and grammars are so divisive. So to pretend it’s all down to DC ability is misguided, which I think is the point you make

Im from the same background as you, with similar opportunities now. My DC go to private school because it’s the best local option. I’m not gaming anything, but I am paying for an educational advantage… the fairness of which could be debated.

Are you saying that they're saying one thing "for effect" but actually doing something different? If so then yes you're probably right that they maximising the resource and connections to get their kids into the best schools, plus additional tuition 'push, push, push', when all the while they're acting all nonchalant and casual like they just don't care.

I agree with you to an extent. In some ways those at either end of the spectrum exhibit more straightforward behaviour, either sending their child to the local school, perhaps in a more rural area where there is effectively no / little choice and at the other end, where parents have chosen a certain fee-paying route, prep and then public or independent school.

In the middle there is a continuum, starting with moving into catchment, getting baptised or attending Church for the sole aim of getting into a certain school, and ending with frankly fraudulent behaviour involving deception about home address / homes etc.

Occasionally something happens which shines a light on the behaviour of those who love to say they are relaxed and want their child to just attend the local school with everyone in the community while specifically buying 1-2 million homes in catchment of the best local school. Typically these are the parents who are deeply critical of their peers who send their children to fee paying schools. Some local authorities are changing catchments / admission arrangements to extend the opportunities of poor / disadvantaged children who often don’t have access to these very high-performing but non-selective schools, e.g. priority for pupil premium children. Even with demographic changes, some children are likely to be displaced. Reactions can be illuminating.

Surely working class parents also look at schools available and think about the best fit? Or is this only something middle class people can do 🤣

The proportion who genuinely don’t care at all and give it no thought must be tiny.