AIBU to think upper middle class professionals downplay how much they game education?

[MyCyanAnt]

I can’t be the only one who has noticed this. I went to genuinely average comprehensive schools and had parents who just dgaf like most in UK. I went to medical school where it seemed like this upbringing put you in a small minority, now an ultra high earner from own business but still do part time work as a GP. DC are 12 and 14.

Whenever the topic of education comes up with other doctors/professionals they will say stuff like it’s the child not the school who determines the outcome, we’re not pushing DC, we’re letting DC pick their school etc

However when it comes down to it none of them ever put their money where their mouth is. It won’t always be Eton but it will almost always be either a private, grammar or high performing comp in expensive catchment area instead of a genuinely average comp.

It’s a similar story with paying for tutors and other parents DC being interested in prestigious but completely unrelated careers e.g. Doctor or investment banking who have obviously been guided by parents.

I do the same but I feel like I’m an outlier in that I don’t lie about it, I’m obviously paying/gaming things so DC are much more likely to get a top job. I don’t see what’s wrong with admitting it yet it’s such a sensitive subject with some.

Maybe they just think “we’re sending our kids private because it buys them better opportunities” is so staggeringly obvious that it doesn’t need to be said? So they then focus on the secondary reasons they chose that specific school, which might be the music lessons 🤷‍♀️

So not 'gaming' - but being disingenuous?

This is interesting. I don’t doubt you, but personally I have never heard another parent say anything like this. IME everyone was inclined to share what they were doing to help their children do well rather than otherwise.

Nor do I recognise the idea that most British parents don’t care about education. Do you think it’s an area or ‘class’ thing? Or maybe race? There is a perception that eg some white working class people are less interested than, for example, parents from other ethinic origins whose children are statistically high performing. But I’m not sure how helpful generalisations are.

Perhaps a GP sees a wider range of people than most.

I agree OP. The ‘progressive’ middle classes talk about comprehensive state education being a good thing and then buy a property in the catchment of a good comp, tutor for a grammar, or if all else fails opt out of state altogether.

There’s a lot of gaming education that goes on. Which is fine. Except for the rank hypocrisy of those who boast about their commitment to state provision and then use their money to elbow others out of the way to get the best for their child.

I don't think it's true at all to say that most parents "dgaf" about their children's education!! That's a rather sad place to be starting from when approaching this topic.

I do think everyone has their own, highly personalised, version of "normal" though. To some, aiming for the top private schools is gaming the system. To others, it's just the done thing, what other option could there possibly be?

Yes I think this is a better word for the behaviour….

Who lets their kids choose at 11?

Parents should listen to their kids views but do what the parent decide is best.

Friends are not the priority over education.

A 10 or 11 year old cannot possibly asses which school is best for them.

It's hard enough for parents.

Actually, the sport and music provision was very important to us. And we were clear and honest about it.

I am not wealthy myself but happen to live in an area that has "up and come" so my more recent neighbours are much weather and I recognise what you describe.

It's this kind of fake hands-off humility that people present in public - "Tarquin just wanted to go to blah blah posh school, I wouldn't have minded if he had gone to the local comp really, I hear it's very good"

In reality you know they have tutored Tarquin within an inch of his life and put him forward for every entrance test going to actively avoid the local comp.
Why not admit that? Doing the best for your kids, whatever you perceive it to be, is what we all do.
If you are privileged enough to throw money at that, great, own it and don't pretend otherwise.

I’m fairly confident this is what most parents do. They will just send them to the closest school unless it is really awful.

If it is their parents job then I’d be inclined to agree, but when it’s totally random/unrelated jobs I’d say it’s obvious where it has come from.

Are you sure you haven’t just been called out ;)

people chat shite. as a doctor you should know this. I only drink 5 units a week. hic...

I've never heard of anyone "gaming" education. In my world it's always been a given that you give your child every opportunity you're capable of. There's no secrecy or casual attitude about it. Of course children get to choose what subjects they want. It's their education after all. Parents will have input to the school but around here the choices are limited anyway. We're upper working class/lower middle class at at a push so maybe we're not the class you're talking about..

Ha, ha. I did admit "Tarquin" had got into the local indy and we were moving him for the facilities and academic stretching. And got some vitriol for it. One mother actually said "John and I have principles and would never do that". Fortunately I had my wit on and managed to say "jolly good job we don't have the same principles then".

It’s not gaming the system because that involves lying and private schools don’t asked why you want your child to go there. There are people who try to game the state system by using an address that they can’t for application purposes but that’s another subject. They aren’t being publicly honest with othetals but their spouse will know exactly why that particular school was chosen.

They are downplaying their efforts because there are many people in England who think it’s not classy to “brag” which is more normal in places like the US or Asia. There it would be seen as being open and honest that their goal was Oxbridge or whatever.

There will be those don’t want to admit that they chose the school for reasons like wanting classmates from a certain background or wanting to avoid certain demographics because they want to appear like good people. This is especially important if you work with people from different backgrounds eg doctor where you need to appear more neutral and fair.

Lots of people with kids in state pick a house near good schools and there are people who christen their child as they have their eyes on a church school place. This isn’t gaming the system as they are following the rules but making sure that their child gets the advantage that they want.

I couldn’t have said it better.

I'm not sure it's gaming the system, surely you do the best you can for your kids with the means you have. Education is the number 1 priority after making sure my kids are happy, I want them to have choices for their future. I do agree its the child who has to put the effort in no amount of money can make a child interested in school. Mine went to our local schools there is a primary and a secondary and that's it. No local private school .

So you're saying some parents pay for tutors, and put their DC through entrance exams for grammar schools while other parents don't. That's hardly gaming education is it?

I don't think it's gaming the system, I would have made the same choices if I'd been able to, however having read posts and threads on here and having had people with the resources to make those choices for their children in my circle over the years, I think it can come across as disingenuous at times, especially when people insist that children just need to want to learn and they will have the same opportunities from a low performance state school as a private one, which quite simply isn't true, because the environment matters hugely.
DDs school wasn't great, but it was the only one available, she did work hard, but I do still think that in an environment where that was properly fostered by teachers not up against appalling conditions and behaviour from a not insignificant minority, she'd have done better, she has a professional job now, one of few from her year group, and I'm incredibly proud of her, but had I been able to afford to buy better opportunities for her, she'd have done even better.
It's just an extension sometimes of the attitude that all you need is to work hard enough and sacrifice enough and that's all it takes to succeed, when in reality the playing field isn't even and hard work and sacrifice aren't the only factors involved.

There's also the very British thing about nor wanting to show off!
IME it's ok to humble brag about the DCs sports but if they've got very clever DC most people tend to play it down.

But it's just their world and culture. V different from yours .
Yes they might let their children choose their school, from 3 very expensive alternatives. People have driven up house prices based on catchment area as long as I've known.
The fact that they can't see it is because that is their world.

We don’t have a local comp so any school would involve some form of travel and effort . Some easier than others. Some more expensive than others. It automatically meant that some thought and research had to go into the choices.

We are what I'd call a run of the mill family. Cheap side of leafy suburbia.

The kids went to the local primary.

I have 2 daughters.
One wanted to go to grammar, we engaged a tutor to enable her - three from her year went to grammar, one to a private education. She got in and was fine - came out of uni with a first, now doing exactly what she wants in academia. She is happy (but broke lol).
Other did not want a grammar so she went to the local comp as she thrived being near the top and not struggling (she would not have been near the top at grammar). We engaged a tutor to help with Chemistry A level so she got into her choice of uni, got a first, now working as a teacher in a private school where she sees levels of unbelievable privilege allied with expectation.
She is happy (and only feels broke if she compares herself to her students)

We were aware that we were buying an advantage with tutors, but the kids still found their own way.

They told us what they wanted and we chucked what money we had at it to try and help.
We didn't mind who knew we used tutors, but we're well aware of some who did, but would keep the info hidden.

You are being pretty arrogant when you say most parents dont give a fuck
And showibg your own privilige
Ther are 163 Grammar schools in England so most kids whose parents cant afford private will be going to a Comprehensive/ Academy
For those of us who cant afford to live in nice areas with high peeforming schools
We have to do the best we can

And some kids are just not academic no matter how hard they are pushed

it’s not exactly letting DC find their own way is it? It’s essentially just paying to give them an advantage so they go to a better uni/get a better job.

Which is what I do of course but I’m not going to deny it with the music, sports, atmosphere etc nonsense.

Private schools aren’t just about academic education though, are they? They open by 8am, pick up is at 6pm from as young as 4yo with most extra curricular being free - unlike state schools. Ie it’s a safe, supportive space for full-time working parents with no grandparental childcare support to use, to both educate and safeguard their children? If you need to work long hours, you want your children in nurturing environments which state schools, with all the best will in the world of its staff, really cannot provide.

And if you are in a city, perhaps as a hospital doctor, you may not be able to afford to live in catchment areas of even ‘mediocre’ secondary schools, but [until the VAT changes] could find the money for school fees for an small, independent local school - many of which do NOT charge anywhere near the fees that get cited in the national newspapers.

Don’t believe the SM hype. And yes, capable children can do well wherever they go to school, but why wouldn’t parents make a decision based on ensuring their children feel safe and nurtured as - inevitably - this too has an impact on academic outcomes and, most importantly, their emotional and psychological wellbeing.