AIBU to think upper middle class professionals downplay how much they game education?

[MyCyanAnt]

I can’t be the only one who has noticed this. I went to genuinely average comprehensive schools and had parents who just dgaf like most in UK. I went to medical school where it seemed like this upbringing put you in a small minority, now an ultra high earner from own business but still do part time work as a GP. DC are 12 and 14.

Whenever the topic of education comes up with other doctors/professionals they will say stuff like it’s the child not the school who determines the outcome, we’re not pushing DC, we’re letting DC pick their school etc

However when it comes down to it none of them ever put their money where their mouth is. It won’t always be Eton but it will almost always be either a private, grammar or high performing comp in expensive catchment area instead of a genuinely average comp.

It’s a similar story with paying for tutors and other parents DC being interested in prestigious but completely unrelated careers e.g. Doctor or investment banking who have obviously been guided by parents.

I do the same but I feel like I’m an outlier in that I don’t lie about it, I’m obviously paying/gaming things so DC are much more likely to get a top job. I don’t see what’s wrong with admitting it yet it’s such a sensitive subject with some.

It’s roughly the same %. i think the key difference is that educational outcomes from private schools in Ireland are the same as the state school system (when you control for family background ect…)

Whether going to private school in the UK seems to offer a distinct advantage in educational outcomes.

Have no idea why. Irish private schools aren’t terribly fancy maybe - and they are a lot cheaper

I'm not sure you can make the comparison because English independent schools often offer iGCSE so they don't produce results in the same format as the state schools as the qualifications aren't strictly comparable. A few of the big name ones have even dropped GCSE altogether and one of the big public schools nearish me does IB rather than A-level. Also none of it is contextual. An A* (or a 9) means something different if the starting point of the student was very different.

It is possible that the Irish schools offer a more similar curriculum? It also sounds like some state funding goes to the private schools - is that correct? I don't think comparisons are easy although I suppose we could have a look at PISA.

Looks like Ireland outperforms England significantly on PISA.

Interesting that we hear so little about their educational system here, although we seem to attract a fair few Irish teachers.

The Irish education system is one size fits all, and heavily supported by out of school grinds(tutors). Most kids stay in school til 18 and do 7 subjects for leaving cert, they have to do Irish, English and Maths. There are newish end of school exam alternatives for applied and vocational subjects.
The grinds are to do with the competitive system for university. Its all based on points which depend on your exam marks. University entry is based on the points of who applies, most popular courses have the highest points. They can have max points and go to random allocation if too many applicants get top marks. So where you go to school, if you do supercirculars, if you have gold Duke of Edinburgh or play Grade 8 trombone don't matter at all. Tutoring is playing the system, but almost everyone does it.

To be fair, none of that makes any difference to UCAS either, not really...

YABVU for saying most parents in the UK dgaf about their child's education.

And whilst I agree that the privileged often don't recognize their privilege, that isn't the crux of your argument. It isn't just the "upper middle class" who are trying to buy advantage for their DC, it's most people who care. I work with women on benefits and many of them have tutors of some sort. They are mostly overseas and I'm sure a lot cheaper than local ones, but tutors nonetheless. These women highly value education for their DC and they want to do their best for them.

Much like over here then.
We have UCAs points which determines university places.

One of my cousins sent their kids to Irish school during the summer holidays. I assume this is some sort of hothousing/ extra education for the Irish language. All of her social group were doing it.
Another one drove her kids a long journey into Dublin for some sort of extra stuff on Saturdays. I'm thinking that may have been Irish too.

What is a transitional year? I don't understand that.

Overall, I always considered Irish education was better than English.

However, last year, my relatives were laughing about the introduction of mickey mouse degrees into Irish universities. So, maybe not.

It's the hypocrisy that I can't stand.

It's worth making the distinction that the Irish system is entirely points based though.

No offers are made until the results come out and offers are made to those with the highest points, working down the list, until the places are full.

It's not like the UK system where offers are made prior to results and its possible for a student to get a place with lower grades than someone else who gets higher grades but misses out.

Transition year comes between junior and leaving cert and it's a year where you get to do much more vocational/fun activities - like work experience, school trips, setting up a mini-company, putting on plays, things like that.

Done well, it's a fantastic experience.

So there is nothing for the less academic kids then?

Not really. The Leaving Cert Applied and Vocational Leaving Cert are offered by some schools. But there are loads of further education options which don't require high levels of points. Like NHCs in England (don't know if they still exist though).

The vast, vast majority stay in school to do the Leaving Cert but the less academic would go on to more vocational courses after that.

There is no exact equivalent to GCSEs in Ireland. The Junior Cert is done after 3 years of secondary and it doesn't have the same significance as GCSEs. It's not relevant to your college applications for example and I don't think you'd ever be asked for your results. It may impact what subjects you could do for your LC but that's about it.

I totally get what you are saying. Similar in my area with parents being extremely secretive about where they are applying for secondary. It's funny as kids talk in school & spill the beans anyways about where they want to go & their parents preferences.. the secrecy is ridiculous imo..

I agree OP. I live in 11+ area. It’s insanely competitive…. Parents don’t like to share information about tutors 🤣 for this supposedly untutorable exam. There a whole very profitable weekend business of 11+ tutoring that you dare not let your kids miss out on it’s just crazy nonsense!!! But for the fact that if your kids get to the Grammar school you know the other kids parents are equally invested and won’t let them get away with silliness at school hopefully

But the fact that you can afford to choose means you are “gaming the system”.

Paying is only one aspect. Anyone can "game" the system by choosing a different school to their nearest one. That's not really "gaming", it's just choice. Some people can't do that if they can't afford the bus fares to get their kid to a school further away than their local "crap comp" - most can. That's still "gaming" in a similar way. "Gaming" is also pretending to be religious and attending church to gain points to get their kid into a better church school than the local crap comp, which lots of people do, and that's nothing to do with money either.

Of course. There are lots of ways of gaming the system. Just pointing out that paying is one available to a tiny minority.

It feels like social mobility is at an all time low again. However many parents who could pay for private school 5 years ago now simply can't but they will be just as ambitious & will pay for private music or language, lessons ,lots of cultural activities & travel... so while these kids may not be attending private schools they will have cultural & social capital in spades which will ensure their advantage & privilege..Even if private schools were completely abolished it will never be an equal playing field..

Museums are free. Art galleries are free.Libraries are free. This summer, bus fares are free.
I didn't have all this extra tuition. I had lots of social and cultural capital. I took myself swimming. I had a free pass at the swimming baths. I used to practice the recorder and the violin. I didn't have music lessons.

Parents just whinge too much nowadays. Children are not educational projects. They are small people who are capable of enjoying life without all these over anxious, competitive Parents.

I had someone whingeing at me the other week about a 'posh' school that should be closed down. The kids there are 'advantaged', and have 'rich, stuck up Parents '.

I pointed out that it is a state school and their kids are eligible to apply.

Too many parents want to play the victim. Just drag your kids off to some free activities and stop moaning.

Oh, what's that? Your kids aren't interested in books, museums, art galleries or countryside walks, or free bus travel?

Yes OP, I agree entirely and I think other people are being disingenuous or not getting what you’re saying. It’s the insouciant pretence that they haven’t been helicoptering since birth and that they’re just going with the flow all along. My child is at a top grammar and we are very much part of this culture you discuss and you’re right. It’s all very much like the kids at school who pretend they don’t study and that it’s all just effortless intelligence while they’re beavering away making sure their child has every advantage as underneath all they’re utterly desperate for them to get a rake of top grades.

That's true in London (to an extent - it's only the national collections that are free and they it's only the permanent collections, not the exhibitions) but it's not true in other parts of the country.

Local authorities have done a lot of merging libraries and handing them over to volunteers with limited opening hours. They do have to provide the service but it doesn't have to be accessible....

How about single sex? Would these be as high achieving as they are in the UK? I'd imagine the roi still has a number of Catholic boys & girls school?

Reading this thread now towards the end... this started about the middle class gaming the system. Irish kids are outperforming us significantly on the PISA exams. Do middle class Irish parents not game the system? Are much more relaxed? Or is the Irish system more transparent so you can't advantage & provide privileges for your dc the way it can be done here?

Grinds (private coaching sessions) are big in Ireland. So yes you can pay to advantage your child.