AIBU to think upper middle class professionals downplay how much they game education?

[MyCyanAnt]

I can’t be the only one who has noticed this. I went to genuinely average comprehensive schools and had parents who just dgaf like most in UK. I went to medical school where it seemed like this upbringing put you in a small minority, now an ultra high earner from own business but still do part time work as a GP. DC are 12 and 14.

Whenever the topic of education comes up with other doctors/professionals they will say stuff like it’s the child not the school who determines the outcome, we’re not pushing DC, we’re letting DC pick their school etc

However when it comes down to it none of them ever put their money where their mouth is. It won’t always be Eton but it will almost always be either a private, grammar or high performing comp in expensive catchment area instead of a genuinely average comp.

It’s a similar story with paying for tutors and other parents DC being interested in prestigious but completely unrelated careers e.g. Doctor or investment banking who have obviously been guided by parents.

I do the same but I feel like I’m an outlier in that I don’t lie about it, I’m obviously paying/gaming things so DC are much more likely to get a top job. I don’t see what’s wrong with admitting it yet it’s such a sensitive subject with some.

I still don't understand how the parents are 'gaming' education - being disingenuous yes but not 'gaming'.

I think you’re entirely incorrect. Of course it’s a priority. If it weren’t house prices wouldn’t be impacted by school performance.

I don’t think these people are perpetuating privilege per se. But I think comparative to your own parents approach it feels like they are.
also I think it’s nairve to think everyone is outcome driven. Many of the most privileged can afford to engage with education purely for its own sake and not as a means to secure economic security. That, is really privilege.

Exactly this.

What I find interesting is I grew up on a council estate, went to the local comprehensive school and got into a top university to become a GP. Now, among the people I work with, everyone acts like they never tutor their children or send them to privileged schools – yet whenever it comes up that I came from an estate and attended the local comp, I’m met with total shock and looks of pity. Even though no one will say it out loud, I can see them judging me. It feels like they refuse to admit the advantages they give their own kids, but they also resent the idea that someone like me – an “outsider” – could ever belong in their world.

People know exactly what they are doing when it comes to educating their children. In the UK we have a stupid culture of doing down people who try to get 'above themselves' presumably a relic of our class system where everyone should keep in their place. People just keep quiet about it or make up some waffle because they don't want to be judged. If you look at the percentage of pupils who have tutoring, it isn't just the upper middle class that give a fuck about education. Every single one of my friends has employed a tutor at some stage of their children's education. Unlike private school, tutoring is affordable to a lot of people.

We’re not a wealthy family but I’ve put a lot of thought and effort into my children’s school choice. I’m not sure I consider it “gaming the system” I value education and I’m willing to scaffold my kids with whatever schools, tutors & extra curriculars they need to help them do their best at school.

I guess I don’t consider “letting them find their own way” as just throwing them into the local school and not thinking about their education.

One of them has additional needs so his educational journey and destination is going to be very different from my eldest’s, who is a highly self driven academic child. But with all my support I’m hoping everyone ends up doing their own best.

So if you asked me I’d say yes, I’m letting them find their own way.

IME most parents care, but are trapped by school catchment, no Grammar schools and unable to afford £10k a term school fees. So they have to make the best of wherever their kids end up, this is where the "clever kids will do well anywhere" comes from. And even then they'll be appealing decisions to avoid to local sink school.

I think the gaming bit is when it’s people who support policies that they know they can opt out of.

Like being vocally against selection when you know you can buy a house next to an excellent school that selects via parents’ ability to live there.

Over 75% of medical students went to comprehensive schools so they can't be that shocked by you.

I’m laughing at how many are thrown off by the word “gaming” but I know exactly what you’re saying OP and you are right.

Many people with means downplay how much importance they put on specific schools and career paths, and the means they go to curate these paths for their children. It’s the adults equivalent of pretending not to do your homework.

I think the reasons are a combination of gatekeeping, cosplaying, competitiveness, mistrust and habitual behaviour from societal conventions that it’s “crass” to discuss such things.

It’s an English thing, I think. You’re overwhelmingly terribly anxious about your children not making it in the world. Other cultures just mostly send their child t9 the nearest school because they’re mostly much of a muchness. We did actually let DS choose his secondary. It’s fine, but nothing special.

I’ve recently heard DF spout Daily Express crap about how lower grades for uni offers for DC from poorer backgrounds isn’t fair. I’ve reminded him exactly what I’ve been able to ‘buy’ to enable his DGC to do their very best. DS1 dragged one subject’s grades up from a D to a B through excellent private tuition. We had the same tutor back years later for a couple of months of tuition for DS2 after some disruption to the A level staffing at school and he was struggling with a couple of topics. £800 paid for eight hours of one to one plus access to the recorded sessions and DS says it made a massive difference. The topics were on the papers.

Wealth can absolutely make a difference and anyone who denies that is talking nonsense.

God I am so glad my kids have left school. School bores are so tedious. Mine went to a pretty ordinary state school, as did I, and we’ve all done really well. We are all very bright though. I can only think that parents who drone on about it so much are actually pretty insecure that despite their endeavours their kids are just average.

It’s the council estate, single mum, benefits life, high crime rates, high pregnancy rates in young girls etc I am referring to not simply the standard comp

Presumably because they want people to think their DC have achieved on merit in a system of equality rather than because they've paid to elevate their mediocrity.

Can you expand on the cosplaying comment? What does that mean?

This is not true/very misleading. Right now it’s roughly a quarter private, a quarter grammar and half comprehensive.

Of those comprehensives, I expect less than half are genuinely average comps. In the past the private/grammars made up a much larger share.

It’s not rare but that alone is enough to put you in a minority. The council estate part was/is very rare still.

There are comps and comps. One of the highest performing and most sought-after schools in Liverpool is an LEA comprehensive.

And these medicine students are supplied by 20% of secondary schools in the country. Comprehensive schools also include those in affluent areas that may not be fee paying or grammars, but are still made up of a privileged few.

Yes but it would be disingenuous to claim that e.g. their better results than their peers in the crap comp. were wholly down to their superior ability.

My son went to a very good private school from 11 and got excellent A level grades. His teaching was brilliant. I could tell the difference because his older brother went to the local comp. They were taught how to analyse material right from the beginning while my older son was just still regurgitating facts. The level of engagement from the teachers and knowledge of the children’s strengths was off the charts different.

Of course it’s gaming the system if we’re talking about access to better higher education and careers.

One of my nephews went to a comp. He didn’t get his grades for med school so had to go the biomed route. He’s now just about to become a. A&E consultant. He ALWAYS had the smarts but the teaching wasn’t as good.

I think generally being an open striver wanting your child to be the best or be pushy isn’t really talked about here.

so everyone uses wishy washy language, when what they actually mean we want the best outcomes and are doing everything within our means to do so.

it’s like the kids who say they don’t study or do their homework. Ignore

If by gaming you mean spreading misleading rumours about a school to give their kids a better chance of getting in, coaching non-academic children within an inch of their life from the age of 5 to pass the 11+ or equivalent, scheming to deny the best tutors to their childrens' peers, 'accidentally' getting closing dates for opportunities wrong, taking PTA roles or governorships to advance their kids interests, knowing the best ways into Oxbridge, then yes.
The one thing they're ineffective at is competing with immigrant children whose parents prioritise education over all else and who ensure 4 hours of study per night, every night.
If you look at how someone like Nick Clegg got to an elite university, it's obviously not a level playing field but those with ability, ambition and support can still do well.

I thought the OP was not making much sense as what she was describing was just the way of the world - inequal access to social and financial capital - and surely no-one would deny it was the case.

But then I read the post above and now I see the OP's point. "I am not gaming the system by sending my child to private school." Yes, of course you are. You are using your financial privilege to give an unfair advantage to your child.

Of course, that does assume that "the system" is designed to give a equal chance to every child, regardless of their background, or have we just abandoned that idea?

I’m not sure those things are mutually exclusive OP. I know a similar couple of professionals who have genuinely let their children choose.

surprise surprise when the girls looked at the schools they rather liked the look of the fancy private schools!

I agree OP and I would also say it’s the same with financial help eg uni, house deposit, etc but it’s often downplayed or left out of certain conversations.