AIBU to consider leaving our knitting group over its new policy?

[Solentseeker]

I’m in a women’s knitting group. It started as just a group of friends and extended from there. We meet twice weekly in an hall that has to be booked and paid for and go on trips etc so it has become more formal over time and has a treasurer, secretary, social secretary etc. I and two other friends were founder members but we take a back seat in the organisation now. We attract lots of younger members (30-somethings!) which is great. I (early 60s) love socialising with people, hearing their views etc.

The new chairman (woman) has recently decided that we should announce that we are ‘trans friendly’ and try to attract trans women and non-binary people. Apart from the fact that I don’t know what non-binary people are other than people who don’t sign up to gender stereotypes (most of the women currently in the group don’t go in for nails / make up / fake tan etc anyway so what’s the difference?) I don’t want men in the group, trans identifying or otherwise. I’ve been sexually assaulted a few times in my lifetime, as has another of the founder members. We’ve also always appreciated having a space away from the male gaze and voice, where women can have their voice centre stage for once. I know a number of the current members are also extremely concerned about this new push and would feel pushed out too if any men join.

I have no desire to ‘out’ myself as a ‘TERF’ by complaining or pushing back as it would in their eyes make me a ‘bad’ person and I always try to do good by everyone. I just disagree wholeheartedly with the idea that men should be treated as women because they say so. It seems so seething misogynistic. I’m deeply sad about the whole situation and think I’m going to have to leave the club, because the current chairman seems to stand for things that I don’t. I appreciate women’s rights and they don’t seem to give a fig. What do politics have to do with knitting? Do I just leave? Do I wait and see whether any men try to join before leaving? I can’t be arsed to fight back even though I would have a LOT of (currently silent) supporters.

you're missing the point. Re-read the sentence and remove 'cis' if that gets you upset The statement still stands.

Okay pretending you didn't misgender me as a cis woman

I am a woman. I was born female, can be proven biologically. The definition of woman is a biological one
There is no biological definition for a trans person. So if they want to define trans then that's okay but it doesn't make them a woman entitled to override to the definition of what one is. A women's group or shared space should be for women. If it is open to people who aren't women then it ceases to be only for women and should be uni sex

From @emmas123 's link -
When we're born, a doctor usually says that we're male or female based on what our bodies look like.
Misleading. Our sex is recorded at birth. Should there be any confusion, a swab will clear it up. A baby's appearance is because of the sexual dimorphism in humans, not just glancing and guessing based on stereotypes.

Everyone—transgender or not—has a gender identity. Most people never think about what their gender identity is because it matches their sex at birth.
Wrong. This is a belief system like having an immortal soul. I have neither a gender identity nor an immortal soul. We exist in material reality, not in a Cartesian dualism.

Counseling aimed at changing someone’s gender identity, sometimes known as conversion therapy, doesn’t work and can be extremely harmful
Given that over 80% of gender questioning young people go on to be accepting of their sex in adulthood when not put on puberty blockers, this is blatantly untrue.

Again - you're missing the point, I'll try again as I'm clearly doing a poor job of explaining.

If a transwoman has no place defining what a woman is to a * biological woman, then clearly a biological woman has no place defining what trans means - and certainly should not be referring to the definition from the community themselves as "absolute horseshit"

*or just 'woman', if that's more palateable to you

Also, any website that uses sex and gender interchangeably to refer to 'gender identity' and not actual sex is disingenuous and deceitful. Every human being has a sex, male or female, and sometimes that sex is very important.

Weird quoting me as saying 'absolute horseshit' as I haven't said that. But you seem to repeatedly refuse to tell me what trans is. Have the community still not decided? I have asked several times, not for a random website but for what the definition is if you don't agree that a man who wants to be female and tries to present as one is such an uneducated view, then please tell me what a trans woman is defined as

It’s up to the majority. If you don’t like it leave. Why do you need to start a MN thread about it.?

Again - you're missing the point, I'll try again as I'm clearly doing a poor job of explaining

You're not, they must be missing the point and/or playing dumb on purpose at this point, for what reason who knows lol

God help any of the children born to these women, its just sickening how easy you are all to hate. You all seem to just shut down any learning to trans people (and therefore possibily anyone else different to them). Because lets be real here, very few of you have come across a real world issue/demonmanrapist you are all so happy to talk about.

I think it's probably a little judgemental to assume before they have even been invited in - otherwise you may just as well go ahead and exclude people of colour, gay women or those with any disability whilst you're at it if any 'non-default' human being is seen as politicising a group

Please explain how legally excluding men from a womens group, is the same as excluding black women?

There areno legalities re who attends a knitting group!😂Said group can be open to who they like.

There are no legalities re who attends a knitting group!😂Said group can be open to who they like.

Incorrect, unless there are 24 or fewer members.

A group of 24 or more, that advertises itself as a womans group, has to be a womans group, not women and a select group of males.

Its also irrelevant to my question.

And groups over 25 have to confirm eligibility,
formulate governing rules and apply the rules consistently. If others don’t want to do that( which it doesn’t sounds if they do) -tough luck!

Such a tedious boring thread. Yet another obsessive wanting to spout anti trans hate who starts a thread on a completely pointless other subject they engineer to bore us all with their views.

@emmas123- I don’t think it particularly matters what the different definition of a trans woman is compared to a cross dressing man, because a) there’s no way for someone else to work out what’s going on, and b) it doesn’t change both are male adults.

And while we are allowed legally to discriminate on sex in situations like this (having a female only group), we can’t legally discriminate between different types of males. The OPs group allows in all males who want to knit with them or none. There’s no way to say just trans identifying males /transwomen.

At that’s the point the OP needs to raise with the chair, you can be “trans-friendly” to female bodied trans people (trans men or NB female people), but once you let in one type of male in, you have to let them all in.

The OP needs to spell it out to the wider group, suggest it’s put to a vote.

you can be “trans-friendly” to female bodied trans people (trans men or NB female people

I mean, I'd have thought that's not exactly "trans friendly" either. You're literally still being the opposite.
"You're not a man, you're a confused/mentally ill woman. Come join us!"
😕🙄

Depends on where you are, in environments like IT/technology TW now typically outnumber women. 40 years ago there was usually 1 or 2 and easy to ignore as they kept a lower profile (but always left the seat up in the loos so we knew they’d been there), 25 years ago I noticed more and that they would increasingly speak over women and crowd them out in tech environments, 15 years ago I first realised there was more of them in the room than women at a tech event.

I leave any women’s group that allows TW as they take over and dominate and after a career spent with men including those who identified as women I treasure all female environments, it only takes one male to change the dynamics entirely

You’re talking nonsense.I just asked my husband who has worked in IT for 40 years in a variety of companies and he hasn’t come across
a single trans person ever. Not once .

It’s ridiculous and goady and fake.

to say that trans men are ok but trans women are not. Madness and so discriminatory

Are you suggesting that men who larp as women would deceptively invade a group explicitly not for them?

Bit transphobic, surely?

It is "for them" too though if the chair has said the group is open to trans women too.

Not true.

We DO see them as women or girls though.

because
they
are

HTH

you might not see them that way, but you must have missed (or are deliberately ignoring) the usual stance trotted out on here.
You just need to look at any thread about any public trans men on here or threads mentioning trans men at all and discussions about them.
Your opinion isn't the only one, even though you may think so.
HTH

You couldn’t care less about women’s rights. Got you. Some of us do, so want to discuss it.