AIBU to consider leaving our knitting group over its new policy?

[Solentseeker]

I’m in a women’s knitting group. It started as just a group of friends and extended from there. We meet twice weekly in an hall that has to be booked and paid for and go on trips etc so it has become more formal over time and has a treasurer, secretary, social secretary etc. I and two other friends were founder members but we take a back seat in the organisation now. We attract lots of younger members (30-somethings!) which is great. I (early 60s) love socialising with people, hearing their views etc.

The new chairman (woman) has recently decided that we should announce that we are ‘trans friendly’ and try to attract trans women and non-binary people. Apart from the fact that I don’t know what non-binary people are other than people who don’t sign up to gender stereotypes (most of the women currently in the group don’t go in for nails / make up / fake tan etc anyway so what’s the difference?) I don’t want men in the group, trans identifying or otherwise. I’ve been sexually assaulted a few times in my lifetime, as has another of the founder members. We’ve also always appreciated having a space away from the male gaze and voice, where women can have their voice centre stage for once. I know a number of the current members are also extremely concerned about this new push and would feel pushed out too if any men join.

I have no desire to ‘out’ myself as a ‘TERF’ by complaining or pushing back as it would in their eyes make me a ‘bad’ person and I always try to do good by everyone. I just disagree wholeheartedly with the idea that men should be treated as women because they say so. It seems so seething misogynistic. I’m deeply sad about the whole situation and think I’m going to have to leave the club, because the current chairman seems to stand for things that I don’t. I appreciate women’s rights and they don’t seem to give a fig. What do politics have to do with knitting? Do I just leave? Do I wait and see whether any men try to join before leaving? I can’t be arsed to fight back even though I would have a LOT of (currently silent) supporters.

Seems a bit exclusionary to me. Why can’t men join?

And this comment ‘It’s the view that trans women are women and we should accept that or we’re freaks that’s gets to me’.

I’m not sure that by the group deciding to admit trans women they’re asking you to change your ideology. It seems more like they’re setting their own membership policy than requiring everyone else to agree with them or even discuss personal viewpoints.

And realistically, I imagine this probably isn’t an issue that’s going to come up very often.

Please explain clearly what the difference is? And how we can tell whether it’s a bloke chucking on a dress to leer at women or a genuine trans woman?

Classic mumsnet ‘I haven’t a clue what I’m talking about’ klaxon. ‘Do your own research. I’m not telling you why I’m right’.

You misunderstand- I meant if the chair wants to be “trans inclusive” in a female only group, so including people who are female but don’t identify as women, that would be perfectly legal as you are a single sex group, so trans men and NB female people would be welcome.

Apart from anything else, forcing the chair to face you can’t legally have a single gender group, only single sex or mixed sex, might be enough to put this idea to bed.

That's because so called "gender critical" people see trans men as vulnerable, frail, lost little women without a mind of their own and frequently patronise them as a result
Trans men - lost victims
Trans women - sexual fetishists
I find that mindset disturbing more than I ever will people who b are trans just going about their business

As per my PP, I have provided a link from transequality.org - because those of us on this thread (I'd guess thats probably all of us) aren't trans. The only community who can really define what trans is means and stands for is the trans community. I posted that in response of you saying "I would indeed read it" when I expressed my concern that me doing the emotional labour for your benefit would be a waste of effort. There's literally a full FAQ page there.

As I've already said, if people want to understand it (and not just ask as supposedly 'genuine' simple question for the purposes of a 'gotcha' moment) then they can take the time to read it. Or not. But at this stage it's a waste of time continuing to provide sources and definitions when someone demonstrates no interest in understanding.

You need to refresh your page - I've actually wrote a number of further comments with links and definitions following that post.

And guess what? The person claiming they would "indeed read it" clearly didn't bother.

Then another poster decided that Reddit would be a better source of info rather than an official trans charity - LOL!

...probably because it's much more fun for a bored MN to argue on a forum rather than actually read something.

Transmen are ultimately likely to be far more vulnerable than trans women due to being born female, you are likely to be smaller and physically less strong and less likely to be aggressive than men. The difference is transmen choosing to go into men's spaces are not a risk to men, they are more likely to be putting themselves at risk if they choose to ignore the single sex split of spaces. The opposite is true for transwomen

I’ve read your source and it appears to be absolute horseshit. Apparently transwomen are born with a different gender identity from their sex at birth and everyone has a gender identity. I beg to differ. I have a sex. All else is a bag of stereotypical nonsense.

but I wouldn’t have expected any different from a website called ‘trans equality’. They’re hardly going to say ‘we want to dress in pretty dresses and play with make up so that makes us women’ are they?

No because GC see trans men as a subset of “women” and transwomen as a subset of “men”. A female only group would of course be open to trans men. Because they are female.

if you view a trans woman as a type of man, of course you’re going to view a trans man as a type of woman and in a women-only space, they’d be welcome.

I would read your definition but you failed to provide one. I'm not reading up on biased resources. You also failed to read any of my posts properly

Actually the transgenderUK reddit is a much more informative source, given that's where trans people talk, than a charity speaking for them.

But trans women are a subset of men. I think that’s where you’re getting confused. To be a transwomen you first have to be a man.

You're welcome!

Transmen - our sisters in feminism because of their female bodies. Mostly very young, mostly lesbians or survivors of sexual assault according to data Hannah Barnes got from the Tavistock.

Transwomen - part of the oppressor sex class, males, trying to force entry into provisions for women (female sex class)

Yeah you're right - let's ignore the trans community on what trans means because some random MN says it's 'horseshit', and instead get Sheila from the local knitting circle to tell us instead.

Sounds about right.

You seem happy to ignore women about being a woman means.

Half the human race are born female. The idea that a small group of people born male should be able to decide on our behalf that being a woman is not being born female, but is some other mysterious thing which only they can understand, and that we just have to accept this in respectful silence, is quite breathtakingly arrogant.

Well, according to some, transwomen aren't women - so why would a (cis) woman get to decide what trans means?

Pick a lane.

Seething misogyny always infests trans women’s arguments. Every. Single. Time. There is nothing else.

They’re not. Fewer and fewer people are moronic enough to think so. See the sheepish row back the health secretary has done. The world peaked long ago. Someone ought to let you know how much you’re embarrassing yourself.

I don't identify as 'cis' thank you
I am a woman. I was born female, can be proven biologically.
If they want to define trans then that's okay but it doesn't make them a woman entitled to override to the definition of what one is. A women's group or shared space should be for women. If it is open to people who aren't women then it ceases to be only for women and should be uni sex

By your own logic then you have absolutely no right to define what trans means on behalf of the trans community - unless you're actually trans.

Your mental gymnastics is embarrassing.

Well, that's a dodge of what the poster you're quoting actually said. Focussing on "what trans people are or aren't' and conveniently ignoring the rest.

Some of us couldn't give a flying fuck if our child was trans.

I'll be a bonus mum to your trans/gay/non-binary child too ❤