AIBU to consider leaving our knitting group over its new policy?

[Solentseeker]

I’m in a women’s knitting group. It started as just a group of friends and extended from there. We meet twice weekly in an hall that has to be booked and paid for and go on trips etc so it has become more formal over time and has a treasurer, secretary, social secretary etc. I and two other friends were founder members but we take a back seat in the organisation now. We attract lots of younger members (30-somethings!) which is great. I (early 60s) love socialising with people, hearing their views etc.

The new chairman (woman) has recently decided that we should announce that we are ‘trans friendly’ and try to attract trans women and non-binary people. Apart from the fact that I don’t know what non-binary people are other than people who don’t sign up to gender stereotypes (most of the women currently in the group don’t go in for nails / make up / fake tan etc anyway so what’s the difference?) I don’t want men in the group, trans identifying or otherwise. I’ve been sexually assaulted a few times in my lifetime, as has another of the founder members. We’ve also always appreciated having a space away from the male gaze and voice, where women can have their voice centre stage for once. I know a number of the current members are also extremely concerned about this new push and would feel pushed out too if any men join.

I have no desire to ‘out’ myself as a ‘TERF’ by complaining or pushing back as it would in their eyes make me a ‘bad’ person and I always try to do good by everyone. I just disagree wholeheartedly with the idea that men should be treated as women because they say so. It seems so seething misogynistic. I’m deeply sad about the whole situation and think I’m going to have to leave the club, because the current chairman seems to stand for things that I don’t. I appreciate women’s rights and they don’t seem to give a fig. What do politics have to do with knitting? Do I just leave? Do I wait and see whether any men try to join before leaving? I can’t be arsed to fight back even though I would have a LOT of (currently silent) supporters.

Exactly, this whole assuming that women who don't want their groups and shared spaces open to trans women being made out to be out to be evil. Most woman just want to have their own spaces to exclude all men unless they want to join unisex options. We don't want trans women to be unable to work and live however they see fit as long as it's not taking womens rights and spaces over and basically taking the view transrights trump all our rights as a result. Also the weird assumption that being gender critical means you're racist, homophobic etc etc is bizarre

Neither a rape crisis centre nor a breastfeeding support group is about women's higher risk of something, they are about supporting women through the impact of physical events.

Women's hobby groups are more like Men's Sheds in that what women avoid is the higher risk of men being predatory and/or of dominating discussion (two documented differences for women between mixed sex and women only groups).

Same here. He knitted me a Looby Lou doll (see Andy Pandy) and (ahem) a golly. Grandpa did not, however, say he was a woman.

I agree that not many trans knitters are likely to turn up. More of a problem is an activist Chair and crew who might have other aims unpalatable to the OP. She will have them knitting flags or insisting on equity - “Undo those stitches! You’re too far ahead.”

"Would you not agree that a trans woman is a biological man who wants to be a woman and tries to present as one"

No, I wouldn't agree on your statement - based on the usage of 'wants' and 'tries'. It's beyond a 'want'. Do you 'want' to be a woman or is that who you are, who you identify as, and core to your being?
It's fundamental core identity and how they live their life that is key. Otherwise a drag queen would be trans for the 60 minute performance, based on your qualification - which (as I've already said) is ridiculous, and I believe most people would disagree with.

You say it's a simple question, but it's not simple - it's complex. Which is why reductive and flippant comments about what you feel a transperson is or isn't, isn't easily answered with a 'yes' or 'no, despite any impatience.

So you could do the work and get better informed, or chose not to and continue with your current mindset - that's out of my hands. I don't think I can add any more to this conversation than I've already tried to do.

What do you mean? They ARE women, we can tell, even if they identify as "nonbinary" (a nonsense term btw) they are still female and we can all see that. If they identified as a dog, horse, giraffe etc, they wouldn't BE that animal, would they? I can't wait for this nonsense to be kicked to the kerb [sigh emogi)

Well, yes that IS what they are. They are dressing as the opposite sex. "Cross" dressing. Used to be called "transexuals".

I know you were replying to another poster but a trans identified male who feels female isn't biologically female he's a man that 'feels' he's different to orher men. He has no idea of what a real female feels like, he can only guess and give his view of what he feels being a woman is. It's all about how someone 'feels', however, facts do matter, so live anyway an individual feels but remember others feel differently and feel sex matters.

Yes I get all that but OP is saying transwoman are not acceptable but transmen are.
Either they both are or they both aren't.

No, that's incorrect.

politics has nothing to do with knitting. Which is why being inclusive has nothing to do with politics.
I don’t really understand what your AIBU is here. If you don’t agree with the proposal and aren’t willing to say that publicly then your only choice is to leave. It’s not unreasonable to leave if you can’t be civil to other people, women or not.

is that who you are, who you identify as, and core to your being

Those are three different things.

Who you are is a matter of factual reality.
Who you identify as is your personal mental state.
Whether either of the above is core to your being is another mental state.

A transwoman is a man - biological factual reality.
He identifies as a woman - his mental state
This identification may or may not be core to his being - another mental state.

Don't assume that posters here are not informed. Many of us have been studying these matters, in great detail and from every possible angle, for over a decade now.
Disagreeing with you does not mean that we are not informed.

Agreed. In the old terminology, a cross-dresser and a transexual were different things.
Moot point though, as they are all just 'transpeople' now.

plenty of trans and nonbinary people ‘pass’. You’d never know they weren’t cis.

Yes, transmen are women so of course they can attend a women's knitting group. Plus, women are identify as being "nonbinary" are also welcome.

This means it is not about "transphobia" at all, just saying "no" to a man.

nope. Transgender people and people who are cross dressers are entirely different things.

well, that wan't your quote, but the sentence "Would you not agree that a trans woman is a biological man who wants to be a woman and tries to present as one"
is not very eloquent or educated, so I standby my statement until shown otherwise.

I was asked for a source on the assumption it wasn't going to be ignored, yet here we are with people claiming cross-dressing and trans are interchangeable.

I suggest using your impressive credentials replying to them instead of me.

politics has nothing to do with knitting.
Agreed

Which is why being inclusive has nothing to do with politics.
Non sequitur.
Also, being 'inclusive' has everything to do with modern identity politics

If you're in a women's group there shouldn't be any men. In your position I would leave because I think other members will make accusations of bigotry towards anyone who thinks that men can't be women. It's sad though
YANBU

Interesting. If they "pass" we wouldn't know, would we, so there would not be an issue. Unfortunately, women are traditionally hardwired to detect a male body (whatever he is wearing) both at a distance and close up, our survival depends upon this finely honed skill.

Would you not agree that a trans woman is a biological man who wants to be a woman and tries to present as one"

This turns on the precise meaning you are giving to the word 'wants'.
Substitute 'believes', 'feels like', etc. This is just splitting hairs.

Not according to the Stonewall umbrella.
Or has that been scrapped now?

Drag queens know they are male, but present them selves as an over the top version of a stereotypical female for usually comedic purposes. That doesn't meet the want to be a woman criteria I specified.
I don't want to be a woman, I just am a woman and therefore that increases my risks of harm from men in a way that trans women aren't going to experience in the same way. I am biologically a woman and can be proven to be so with science. If I wanted to be a man and present as one, I would be a trans man, but also still very much a woman.
If you can't define what a trans woman is then how are we women meant to let them into our shared spaces and groups and make sure the men who aren't trans women aren't allowed in?
A trans woman doesn't cease to have the biological differences to women, those differences which increase their risk to women. Women should be allowed to choose to exclude men in certain scenarios for their own safety and wellbeing. Prisons, changing rooms toilets, groups etc
In the same way as I wouldn't want to undress in front of a man I don't know who says don't worry I'm gay, I wouldn't want to undress in front of a man who says don't worry I'm a woman. The common factor is they are biological men who pose a potential risk to women and we can't just take a man's word to mean they are no threat to us. If you feel otherwise then that's fine, but every woman shouldn't be forced to let themselves be at risk for the sake of not wanting to upset a man who thinks they are or feels like they are a woman. It's not our responsibility.
Either groups are uni sex or single sex.

I never asked for a source and I never said cross dressing made a man a trans woman. I asked for your definition of trans woman which you seem to be failing to give because its 'complex'

@Solentseeker- I would go back to your new chair and say that you understand from the recent high court ruling, you can’t just have a single gender group that’s mixed sex, if she goes ahead and welcomes in transwomen, the group will be a mixed sex group that’s discriminating against male people who identify as men.

If she wants to make it a mixed sex group it has to be all or nothing, as the group can’t afford to break the law. Making it no longer female only should go to the wider group to vote on, but be clear to everyone in the group there’s no legal way to say cis women and transwomen only, it’s got to be fully mixed or single sex, not single gender.

That you’d welcome being trans inclusive by calling it a female not womens group, so trans men and non-binary female bodies people would feel welcome.

Then possibly add if you are going fully mixed sex you aren’t sure you’d want to continue to go, but if that’s what the majority want then of course it should happen.

calling it a female not womens group

Might still be on dodgy ground legally with the word female.
You could use the word 'feminine', or put an obvious flag in the name, like 'girly knitters group'.