AIBU to consider leaving our knitting group over its new policy?

[Solentseeker]

I’m in a women’s knitting group. It started as just a group of friends and extended from there. We meet twice weekly in an hall that has to be booked and paid for and go on trips etc so it has become more formal over time and has a treasurer, secretary, social secretary etc. I and two other friends were founder members but we take a back seat in the organisation now. We attract lots of younger members (30-somethings!) which is great. I (early 60s) love socialising with people, hearing their views etc.

The new chairman (woman) has recently decided that we should announce that we are ‘trans friendly’ and try to attract trans women and non-binary people. Apart from the fact that I don’t know what non-binary people are other than people who don’t sign up to gender stereotypes (most of the women currently in the group don’t go in for nails / make up / fake tan etc anyway so what’s the difference?) I don’t want men in the group, trans identifying or otherwise. I’ve been sexually assaulted a few times in my lifetime, as has another of the founder members. We’ve also always appreciated having a space away from the male gaze and voice, where women can have their voice centre stage for once. I know a number of the current members are also extremely concerned about this new push and would feel pushed out too if any men join.

I have no desire to ‘out’ myself as a ‘TERF’ by complaining or pushing back as it would in their eyes make me a ‘bad’ person and I always try to do good by everyone. I just disagree wholeheartedly with the idea that men should be treated as women because they say so. It seems so seething misogynistic. I’m deeply sad about the whole situation and think I’m going to have to leave the club, because the current chairman seems to stand for things that I don’t. I appreciate women’s rights and they don’t seem to give a fig. What do politics have to do with knitting? Do I just leave? Do I wait and see whether any men try to join before leaving? I can’t be arsed to fight back even though I would have a LOT of (currently silent) supporters.

Then why do they continuously insist on making a significant/large minority women uncomfortable and/or fearful, and push women out of their own female spaces (whether social groups or female facilities) by forcefully inserting themselves?

It's the same as me being able to decide to use a women's toilet or changing room, or a uni sex one. If you know if it's women only or both sexes then you can make the decision to whether you are comfortable using them. But a women's only group where only special men are allowed to join, is essentially a unisex situation but pretending to be women only. Things can either be segregated by sex or they're not, I would be more comfortable joining truly mixed groups or women only than the weird women and trans women only ones. I would be happy for women's only groups to include trans men as they are still biological women.
Excluding all other men and inviting trans women into the group is far more likely to result in certain trans women joining that think being a women is a fetish and relishes making women feel uncomfortable and making them out to be horrible people if they dare to speak up. In a truly mixed sex environment they're far more likely to keep themselves in check because other men are around or possibly not join at all because it's not a special woman's club they can join

All of this. God forbid women want some space for themselves once in a while.

YANBU, OP.

Your post sounds a bit hysterical and reads as confusing. This isn't about bannign "transpeople" just continuing to be being women-only and not admitting men in womanface. Women who opt out of their womanhood are just as welcome.

To be fair, they're not at present. The leader is trying to actively recruit, no transwoman has asked to join as far as I'm aware.

I agree that they need to have a vote on whether to make it mixed sex. And if it is, the OP can set up another women's group, annoying, but there we go. And I bet if it's mixed, no transwomen would join, but the leader can have had their way. Or men and transwomen can join that group and knit away.

The leader is both virtue signalling and ignorant of the law.

Horrible decision the chair is making. And I’d suggest the alternative is that they start a new knitting group for whoever wants to join, whilst your original group stays as a women’s space.
So sorry this has happened, honestly, it’s toxic stuff.

Incorrect.

You can have a group for multiple characteristics, but all members must share all the characteristics. A disabled lesbian Christian group is for women who are also same sex attracted and disabled and Christian. Not for disabled Christian straight women, or able bodied atheist gay men.

LGBTQ group tend to be for people in all those groups and 'allies' - so they are not protected characteristic groups, they are shared interest groups open to all.

This completely contradicts your previously stated reasons and shows your true colours. Previously it was men change the dynamic/men overpower women's voices/women have been sexually assaulted so need a women only space. Now, you're okay if men join, just not trans or non binary people.

How lovely. Meanwhile, back in the real world, we use safe guarding to try and keep people safe from crimes being committed against them because we actually care about protecting people rather than always prioritising mens feelings.

Maybe go lecture rapists on how they're making other men look bad, or is it simply womens job to ignore their own safety and prioritise male feelings?

Its utterly bonkers to me that some women get this upset at women having their own things, because it might make men sad.

I don’t see any inconsistency in the OP’s position.

She’s been perfectly clear: she would prefer the group she started to remain women only. However, if the Chair & a majority of the members want to open it up to men only, she will accept that as a democratic decision.

What she doesn’t want is to be put in a position where she’s supposed to applaud some bloke having a lovely, validating time being in a ladies group because he is a lady doing lady things with other ladies.

I would feel the same, honestly.

Mind you the Chair may feel she’s doing all the work & all the admin whilst OP & the other OG Founding Knitters just rock up & grumble about change. Possibly the group has just run its course in its current form.

It’s unfortunately what happens with any club over a certain size - eventually the People’s Popular Front of Judea have to bugger off & do their own thing (‘SPLITTERS!’) - which is why the only fair thing to do is vote on it, & the minority opinion group, whoever that turns out to be, just go & do their own thing.

What is wrong with something being "divisive", meaning women having a hobby club just for women? Not everything has to include everyone, and that is OK.
Why is it a 'pity' for women to have a women-only club?
I really don't understand your point of view.

It is not about anyone blaming or excluding your sons, or any other men, for their crimes or attitudes. It is not about having assumptions about all men.

It is just about women having the right to exclude men from hobby clubs. Just because they want to. That is all.

Dropping a bit low there, calling someone hysterical...

Also your point makes no sense. To you, as a terf, trans people are "men in women face" (never heard thst before, gross).
So surely you are pretty much saying "this isnt about bananas. We just want to ban yellow tropical fruit".

Hysterical 🙄
For someone who's got a problem with trans women as they're "woman face", that's an interesting choice of word 🙄😁
That's not tone policing either before you start, use what you like, just saying people with your views usually pull up anyone with different views when they use it, saying it's misogynistic.

Yes – I'm just generalising. This issue wouldn't be so relevant and relatable if not for the fact that trans people are generally trying to have full access to all spaces of their (unattainable but) desired sex.

I would be surprised if all the trans people that are friends of the pp I quoted don't access any cross-sex spaces at all. There are always a lot of claims of understanding and sympathy, but no evidence of it.

What is "gender identity"?
What is "trans"?

The way you're erasing the existence of 'trans men' (aka women who identify as men) is pretty transphobic.

That’s because the claims of sympathy and understanding are mere surface politeness due to fear of being bullied by aggressive men trying to invade women’s space. It’s obvious when you look at it logically, that the lack of evidence = evidence.

They could start their own "trans knit" group. But no, these men who masquerade as women need the validation of being in a woman's group, it is essential.

I haven't read the full thread

But that's what happens when groups get to big ..the strongest personalities take over and set the pace .
Just quietly invite a few of the original group,or whoever you like to coffee at your house ,and do some knitting together,then next week do the same .
Your house ,your rules ,then just quietly step back from the larger group
No drama ,you do as you please in your own home

What she doesn’t want is to be put in a position where she’s supposed to applaud some bloke having a lovely, validating time being in a ladies group because he is a lady doing lady things with other ladies

That's your take on it though, and prejudice showing - wanting to exclude just because you think "only doing it for wanting a lovely validating time doing lady things with other ladies"

Others think that's a load of crap. How about it's just another person wanting to do a craft they enjoy with others?
As for knitting only being "a lady thing" - that's a very outdated attitude. The 50s are calling and want you back ..

If I am making orange juice, I only want oranges. A banana that identifies as an orange is not acceptable. I would exclude all yellow fruit, yes.

'Woman-face' is gross to many women. Just as 'black-face' is gross and now (thankfully) totally socially unacceptable.

The group is shitting itself over the idea of a trans women joining (women facing, pretending to be a women whatever you want to call it). So that is clearly what we are adressing as its a women knit group....

The group should have a vote on this I agree.

There are not the issues that come with say the Ladies Pond or competitive sport, however it does change the nature of the group.

Yes, and it needs to be an anonymous vote, not hands up, as we know how that goes.