AIBU to consider leaving our knitting group over its new policy?

[Solentseeker]

I’m in a women’s knitting group. It started as just a group of friends and extended from there. We meet twice weekly in an hall that has to be booked and paid for and go on trips etc so it has become more formal over time and has a treasurer, secretary, social secretary etc. I and two other friends were founder members but we take a back seat in the organisation now. We attract lots of younger members (30-somethings!) which is great. I (early 60s) love socialising with people, hearing their views etc.

The new chairman (woman) has recently decided that we should announce that we are ‘trans friendly’ and try to attract trans women and non-binary people. Apart from the fact that I don’t know what non-binary people are other than people who don’t sign up to gender stereotypes (most of the women currently in the group don’t go in for nails / make up / fake tan etc anyway so what’s the difference?) I don’t want men in the group, trans identifying or otherwise. I’ve been sexually assaulted a few times in my lifetime, as has another of the founder members. We’ve also always appreciated having a space away from the male gaze and voice, where women can have their voice centre stage for once. I know a number of the current members are also extremely concerned about this new push and would feel pushed out too if any men join.

I have no desire to ‘out’ myself as a ‘TERF’ by complaining or pushing back as it would in their eyes make me a ‘bad’ person and I always try to do good by everyone. I just disagree wholeheartedly with the idea that men should be treated as women because they say so. It seems so seething misogynistic. I’m deeply sad about the whole situation and think I’m going to have to leave the club, because the current chairman seems to stand for things that I don’t. I appreciate women’s rights and they don’t seem to give a fig. What do politics have to do with knitting? Do I just leave? Do I wait and see whether any men try to join before leaving? I can’t be arsed to fight back even though I would have a LOT of (currently silent) supporters.

I said the post sounded hysterical not you.

Womanface is like blackface, both unacceptable imo but you are welcome to disagree.

You misunderstand. It is not that knitting is a 'lady thing. It is that being present in a women-only hobby group is a 'lady thing'.

If a man wants to knit socially, he can start his own group. Or the women's group can vote to include men. But they can't vote to include transwomen but continue excluding other men.

Are you really, genuinely ignorant of the way that (some) transwomen want to join women-only groups purely for validation? And that they are not interested in mixed-sex groups because there is no validation to be had there?

I have a son and I would not want him thinking he's entitled to be in women's spaces for any reason. Committing crimes is completely irrelevant, not all trans women are criminals - the point is that they're all men. Women are allowed to have things just for themselves and that is ok. It's not 'avoiding' men, it's not divisive and it shouldn't be problematic.

Women are legally allowed their own spaces without any type of man in them:

Private vs. Public Status: Under legislation like the Equality Act 2010, private, non-profit clubs that have a distinct selection process and limit benefits strictly to members are generally exempt from sex discrimination laws when it comes to club membership.
No Essential Exclusion: Gender-exclusive spaces are widely accepted if there are equivalent options available for both genders, and if the exclusivity doesn't prevent either gender from accessing essential employment, education, or public functions.

The poster you were responding to specifically said that they feel anyone female, including trans men, should be welcome. So it's not about trans people not being welcome, it's about males not being welcome.

In response, you quite clearly forgot trans men even existed, because you ranted about how 'trans people' were just all 'men in women face' to 'terfs', completely ignoring what the poster actually said. Very transphobic of you.

(And misogynistic in my opinion, but that's by the by.)

Same reason there are 'women only' sports and work out groups - some women don't want to be surrounded by men. Women are allowed to have their own spaces! Same way Men are allowed to have men only football teams

It's because trans women are as much of a threat to women as any other man. Op didn't mention wanting to exclude lesbians so I imagine she's quite happy to include them as they are women. If a trans man wanted to join they are also not a threat. If it was going to change to a uni sex group then women could make a choice whether it's an acceptable risk to include men in the group

What is she ignorant about?

I don't know how she intends to market the group specifically to trans people? In most areas of the UK they really are very few and far between.

Surely it should just be that she wants more people to join, and that it could be open to both sexes?

There should be a vote on allowing it to stop being women only.

It's true the women could split off and form their own single sex group but that seems unfair as the founding and core membership. But I guess if some vote against it they might do.

I agree knitting isn’t a ‘lady thing’. So a man who wants to knit can join a mixed knitting group, can’t he? The sort of chap who thinks ‘no actually - I want to badger a women’s group to let me in, because I identify as a woman’ is not respectful of the existing boundaries set by the group ie the original founders wanted it to be women only.

It’s not like football where you need 22 players. Anyone who wants a mixed sex group can set one up & see who else wants to come. Some women might happily join both.

Or, as above, a group where a majority want to change the rules can reasonably do so & those who don’t like it can break away.

You just can’t have a women’s group & let certain men in because of their special feelings.

Which is both OP’s point & the legal position.

Be fair - the OP has said repeatedly that she's absolutely fine with transmen joining, and women who self-identify as non binary. She says she knows numerous transmen through her daughter's friendships.

It's the men wanting to present as women she has an issue with.

Exactly. So the steps would be for @Solentseeker to say that we need to have a vote on changing it to a mixed sex group, and to change the name if it explicitly says women in the name, this isn't entirely clear.

And depending on the vote, which should be anonymous, @Solentseeker can then set up a women's group or not. I imagine it would be pretty popular if she did.

@NullaEffugium king George V1 was a keen embroiderer. He made a full set of chair covers. They are incredibly intricate!

Do men who want to knit, of whatever 'gender identity', ever think about setting up their own groups? Maybe there's just not enough interest.

I don’t think this problem is true, I think it’s invented to scream TERF views into the MN obsessed echo chamber. Cringe.

This! In spades!!

The chair either knows a specific transwoman who wants to join, or, more likely, is just virtue signalling.

Some people just cannot leave their politics at the door.

I think I would quietly leave, not giving reasons and then keep an eye on what happens with the group.

It needs to be a group decision, not a chair's decision. Then you'll know what to do.

It's already set up as a women's knitting group, it was founded on this principle.
Therefore, the ones who are happy for the group to be open to all, are the ones who should leave and set up their own group.

Yeah it sounds daft really. They should have said 'my mate Brenda, who's a trans woman, wants to join, is this ok?'
Rather than claiming they want to advertise to trans people specifically across god knows what platforms.

If pressed on the reasoning/meaning behind it the chair might find herself a bit embarrassed.

Or maybe she's just wanting the group to include people who are trans too and wants them to know that they'd be welcome ( as evidenced by this thread, some are hostile to their very being even if they haven't done anything.)
Not everything's "virtue signalling."

I agree, but given the new leader, practically, that's not going to happen.

Troll hunting is against the rules of Mumsnet. Cringe.

Exactly
She's no idea what she wants.
Just an argument by the look of it

I had this happen in a group I ran. It folded as the original women felt they couldn't discuss 'woman' things. The 'man' always pushed the conversation around to their own needs.

In hindsight, I wish we had voted new members in. Then we could have voted them out. Could this be an option?