AIBU to consider leaving our knitting group over its new policy?

[Solentseeker]

I’m in a women’s knitting group. It started as just a group of friends and extended from there. We meet twice weekly in an hall that has to be booked and paid for and go on trips etc so it has become more formal over time and has a treasurer, secretary, social secretary etc. I and two other friends were founder members but we take a back seat in the organisation now. We attract lots of younger members (30-somethings!) which is great. I (early 60s) love socialising with people, hearing their views etc.

The new chairman (woman) has recently decided that we should announce that we are ‘trans friendly’ and try to attract trans women and non-binary people. Apart from the fact that I don’t know what non-binary people are other than people who don’t sign up to gender stereotypes (most of the women currently in the group don’t go in for nails / make up / fake tan etc anyway so what’s the difference?) I don’t want men in the group, trans identifying or otherwise. I’ve been sexually assaulted a few times in my lifetime, as has another of the founder members. We’ve also always appreciated having a space away from the male gaze and voice, where women can have their voice centre stage for once. I know a number of the current members are also extremely concerned about this new push and would feel pushed out too if any men join.

I have no desire to ‘out’ myself as a ‘TERF’ by complaining or pushing back as it would in their eyes make me a ‘bad’ person and I always try to do good by everyone. I just disagree wholeheartedly with the idea that men should be treated as women because they say so. It seems so seething misogynistic. I’m deeply sad about the whole situation and think I’m going to have to leave the club, because the current chairman seems to stand for things that I don’t. I appreciate women’s rights and they don’t seem to give a fig. What do politics have to do with knitting? Do I just leave? Do I wait and see whether any men try to join before leaving? I can’t be arsed to fight back even though I would have a LOT of (currently silent) supporters.

How dare you be so patronising and insulting to a woman with valid concerns that many of us on MN would empathise with. Just one man will completely ruin an all female environment, and why should women put up with this? And by the way it is sick and moronic to suggest that a woman should ever have to defend herself with knitting needles in a craft group. Hang your head in shame, so misogynist

She said she'd be ok with men who aren't trans being in the group though, it's just trans women she doesn't want there

The OP is happy for men to join her knitting group though.

Yes, I understand that women just want men to leave them alone.

I also understand why anyone might want to set up a single sex hobby group.

But the OP is happy for men to join her group, so she's a terf. Fine. Own it.

I'm in no groups. Women, men, trans, gay, straight. But I wouldn't define any group I might be interested in by what the people in it have in their pants.

I'm not particularly man friendly, but I've also met plenty of women who are arseholes.

I agree with this. Chances are, no one will join. If they do, and they annoy you for whatever reason, then just accept that your time in this group might be over.

Yes, her narrative shifts. But:

"If we make a rule change and invite all men that’s fine. It’s being expected to endorse the frankly pretty distasteful lie that women hood is nothing but a wig and a frock and calling yourself Susan."

YANBU.

Couldnt agree with this more, people on this site seriously need to get over themselves and see people as people (of which is a major aspect of feminism).

I just don't accept the narrative that we have to hide in corners because collectively we can't own the space we are in.

Or, we can just set up women-only hobby clubs. We don't have to be concerned about 'owning the space' and not letting men dominate if there are no men present.
Just because it is for a hobby, rather that a refuge or a survivor's support group, doesn't mean we have to let men in. Making a choice to have a single-sex club is not having to 'hide in corners'.

It is perfectly valid to want to knit (or do any other hobby) without men present.

YANBU at all but as you say it's relatively unlikely to actually happen unless the chair goes out to actively recruit some transwomen knitting fans from the local LGBTQ+ social circuit.

Does the group have a WhatsApp?

In your position I would sit quiet and wait until such time as a male person joins - it may never happen. If it does, then pick a different day of the week and send out a message to everyone except the chair (and anyone who has made it clear they agree with her) saying something like "Obviously I totally respect everyone's right to feel differently, but I really valued having an all-female group for our crafting meetups. If you feel similarly please join me at (venue&date/time) and I shall hopefully look forward to seeing you then to carry on with our knitting and (non political) chatting. No hard feelings if you are all happy with the mixed-sex group, but it's not for me"

You do not have to use the word trans. It is clear in law that when things are single-sex then it's biological sex that counts, nothing to do with Gender.

You ABU to have misrepresented your post.

It was never about knitting. It's a stealth TERF post. Which is ironic, because one of the things TERFs hate is men being women by stealth.

Trans women are not women (if they were, they would not need a special invite), and I agree that the group should either be single sex only, or open to both sexes.

I wouldn't advise any group to discriminate against someone on the basis of gender identity unless there is a valid legal reason for doing so, i.e. it's a group which is permitted to be single sex women's only group under the Equality Act, or just a few friends doing something and completely unofficial in which case you can have who you like.

The next consideration then is a communication issue. Is there a need to have as wide appeal as possible? Is there a need for new members? Why change anything at all if it is popular and growing/has grown?

Another question is should there be a limit on numbers anyway? What size should the group be?

It is all crazy .... you do not need an upfront policy. You just need to get on with enjoying yourselves doing what you do.
The chances of a trans knitter rolling up are vanishingly small and if they did they might/might not be a great person/good knitter ... who can say?
The group needs to just keep rolling on as is and quit the window dressing.

They need a warming invite because of people like those on this thread. Its a constantly unwelcome and ill educated environment. They may just want a space to join in and be creative, seriously what is the big deal. Have a knit have a coffee and a chat. Its a person and the OP allegedly is happy talking to a range of young people in her group.

I can't see where to vote. I think you'll find that the vast majority would say YANBU but think that it would be better to voice your objections first.

OP has clearly said that she would prefer it to remain a women's group, but if they vote to let men in that is fine.

She has also said: "It’s being expected to endorse the frankly pretty distasteful lie that women hood is nothing but a wig and a frock and calling yourself Susan."
I see nothing wrong with that view. I 'own' the view that transwomen are not women, and that it is a distasteful lie to think that womanhood is just a matter of clothes and names and pronouns.

TERF stands for Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist. It means a feminist who does not accept transwomen as being women.
@Solentseeker has not claimed to be a feminist. She excludes transwomen from her definition of women, but is not a TERF unless she is also a feminist.

Words matter.

Sorry, but I disagree with only sending warming invites to transgender people. Either the group welcomes everyone, or it doesn’t and remains women only.

That's true
Never really thought about it before but yes I can see that - the reason people probably give such a warm welcome is that they want to show that they honestly don't mind anyone turning up and joining.
As if the premise for some is outright hostility and assumptions that they're just sexual fetishists when they literally haven't done anything but want to join a craft group (like people tend to do) then the group needs to say "course you can join too"
if that's what they do indeed want.
In this case it tends to look like.
It's OP who wants to exclude them.

I agree OP but I’ve been called a ‘sicko’ and ‘mentally ill’ for expressing this opinion. To me, the only mentally ill people are those pretending to be the opposite sex to which they were born. But, hey, who am I to say? I’m just an uninformed bigot apparently 🤷‍♀️

#TranswomenAreNotWomen

XX- Woman
XY- Man

I go to a knitting and crochet group.
It's all women except for the husband of the organiser who come to make us all cups of tea. I have been going for three years or so, and we have had one man join. He comes occasionally, not regularly.
I feel it is a largely female environment. We talk about knitting mostly and moan about our jobs and/or kids.
I think you may be creating a problem that isn't really there, but if you do go down an official route, it's not complicated, you are either for biological women only (and exclude all men regardless of if they are wearing a dress) or become mixed and welcome everyone. I predict if you go mixed, the amount of men joining will be vanishing small. The amount of transwomen will be even smaller - they are a tiny minority anyway, and knitters among them will be even smaller. Once you are mixed, the appeal vanishes for the transwomen who just want the validation and any TW joining are likely to be a genuine knitter.
I may sound a bit like I am opting for the easy life, but I am a Girlguiding leader as well, so I choose my battles on this issue.

You are also allowed to set up your own group and have whatever rules you want. If you think nobody else will join you, maybe reflect on that.

Mumsnet bingo- The neurodivergent card 🙄 She doesn’t have to be neurodivergent just because she doesn’t want a bloke in a women’s space.

Form a knitting spin off group then if you have got the needle

Oh come on, I’m a life long leftie and I know exactly what she is talking about - a particular type of usually middle class lefty liberal who engages in and espouse luxury beliefs. They are every bit as irritating as the Margaret Thatchers - “I’m a ball busting woman who made it to the top with no help (except for the rich husband, the nanny, the supportive start in life), why can’t you wimpy ordinary women just do the same?”.

Both groups are tone deaf and unable to consider anyone else’s views or needs or experiences. They know what is best for everyone else.

The type has always existed, SM just gave it steroids.