AIBU to consider leaving our knitting group over its new policy?

[Solentseeker]

I’m in a women’s knitting group. It started as just a group of friends and extended from there. We meet twice weekly in an hall that has to be booked and paid for and go on trips etc so it has become more formal over time and has a treasurer, secretary, social secretary etc. I and two other friends were founder members but we take a back seat in the organisation now. We attract lots of younger members (30-somethings!) which is great. I (early 60s) love socialising with people, hearing their views etc.

The new chairman (woman) has recently decided that we should announce that we are ‘trans friendly’ and try to attract trans women and non-binary people. Apart from the fact that I don’t know what non-binary people are other than people who don’t sign up to gender stereotypes (most of the women currently in the group don’t go in for nails / make up / fake tan etc anyway so what’s the difference?) I don’t want men in the group, trans identifying or otherwise. I’ve been sexually assaulted a few times in my lifetime, as has another of the founder members. We’ve also always appreciated having a space away from the male gaze and voice, where women can have their voice centre stage for once. I know a number of the current members are also extremely concerned about this new push and would feel pushed out too if any men join.

I have no desire to ‘out’ myself as a ‘TERF’ by complaining or pushing back as it would in their eyes make me a ‘bad’ person and I always try to do good by everyone. I just disagree wholeheartedly with the idea that men should be treated as women because they say so. It seems so seething misogynistic. I’m deeply sad about the whole situation and think I’m going to have to leave the club, because the current chairman seems to stand for things that I don’t. I appreciate women’s rights and they don’t seem to give a fig. What do politics have to do with knitting? Do I just leave? Do I wait and see whether any men try to join before leaving? I can’t be arsed to fight back even though I would have a LOT of (currently silent) supporters.

I think it is very weird to have that as an agenda. If they approach the group and wish to join, then fine.. that’s one thing. Specifically trying to target these groups - without consulting with the existing members is risky.

So if you're "wanting to avoid the male gaze"
Why would you be fine if the group changed to men only?
You're contradicting yourself all over the place.
As well as trying to gaslight people by pretending there's something wrong with their reading comprehension.

I would wait and see if anyone male actually joins and what happens then.

OP, I would just push back on the idea that you need to 'recruit' anybody. It sounds like it is a pretty successful venture as it is.

You should also push back on the idea that it is virtuous for trans and non-binary people to be doing a female-coded hobby too. Do you have a DEI statement? I don't think you need one but if so, what does it say about race, socioeconomic class and disability?

FWIW I have done knitting groups and they attracted very few men. The men who did come along were quite fun older gay men, with the occassional younger bear, who were also quite sweet.

She doesn't want to exclude men, she wants to exclude men pretending to be women

If you said in your post you don't want men in the group. Then a reader will assume you don't want men in the group. Now you say you don't mind men joining. Which is it. Personally I think it's a fuss about nothing as no trans folk have even asked to join. Or men either.

YABU for your weird contradictory views, your stereotyping of men, and you wanting to hear others views but not if they’re left-wing.

But not every trans person is radical. That's a dreadful generalisation. Again, both the trans people I know just get on with their lives quietly.

Maybe someone trans actually joins but they turn out to be nice? You never know. Not all trans people are raving misogynistic loons (and I'm as TERF as they can be).

Is the chair willing to set it to a vote?
Thats the only fair way decide amongst the group.
If the voting doesn't support her ethos then you're okay to continue, but if not you are, and have always been, free to leave.
BTW, I wouldn't choose to stay in a mixed group that had previously been female only, trans or otherwise.

I think she does - it's trans women as a whole she has a problem with.
Not men who aren't trans, as she said it'd be fine if it opened up to be a mixed sex group.

I think you're perhaps being a little disingenous in your OP, you start by saying you don't understand what people mean by non-binary, and imply that you think not wearing nail varnish could qualify, then use the terminology of the online debates on this quite fluently a few lines later (TERF).

"...Apart from the fact that I don’t know what non-binary people are other than people who don’t sign up to gender stereotypes (most of the women currently in the group don’t go in for nails / make up / fake tan etc anyway so what’s the difference?) ....I have no desire to ‘out’ myself as a ‘TERF’ by complaining .... I just disagree wholeheartedly with the idea that men should be treated as women because they say so."

I think you had pretty strong views on this before the new(ish) leadership proposed being welcoming and friendly to all, and you're portraying yourself as an uncomfortable elderly newcomer to the debate, to gather sympathy.

Maybe start your own, womens only knitting club, with that aspect made clear as part of its identity, if you feel so strongly about it; its not your job to ensure the existing club excludes people to your personal agenda.

In the very first post she says I don't want men in the group
It couldn't be clearer

I've just caught up on this thread and don't think I've ever seen such a 'problem' that's perfectly made for a Mumsnet discussion.

This bears repeating

Yep. We're all wasting our time here.
OP doesn't know what she wants, other than a life without left wing opinions and trans women.

You are missing the essential difference between men's golf groups and women's knitting groups. You assume they are equivalent, but they are not equivalent because you are ignoring all the historical context of patriarchy and misogyny.

Men's clubs, like golf, specifically excluded women because they were as much about business opportunities and business networking as they were about golf. By excluding women, they kept women out of the power structures and money making networks.

Women's groups are also not mostly about the specific hobby (knitting or anything else), they are a chance for women to gather away from men. But the reason for wanting or needing that single-sex gathering is not to exclude men from power or business deals. It is to let women feel safe and free from men.

As @Solentseeker described, if you go to a women's group, you know that there won't be a man there trying to chat you up and offering to walk you home.
Do you have any idea the extent to which women just want men to leave them alone? Women want to go out and not be bothered with all that sex-seeking behaviour from men?

I knew what this post would be about just from reading the title. As a knitting group I’m shocked it’s taken this long for you to come accross this issue. The knitting world is incredibly woke and with so much virtue signalling it’s off the chart! . People are cancelled left right and centre over the silliest of things. I’d say have the whole group vote and then if it doesn’t go your way leave and set up again. Good luck

Maybe start your own, womens only knitting club

But @Solentseeker did start this one. She was a founder member.
The only fair way is a vote of all members.

Explain that for personal reasons you are unhappy with men joining your group
And the Supreme Court says trans-women are men
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cvgq9ejql39t
Request the new committee put it to a vote of all members

I see the Dentons playbook is still alive and well

Have your say to the group, as you have here. Don't just quietly leave. Is it put to a vote? Or can you just make your feelings and views known, and hope that as founder members you and your friend's feelings carry weight. 🍀

The world's gone mad .

Deleted as wrong thread

I'm sorry I was overly harsh, but we are talking about a group situation, not one woman alone. And no, I am not 'lucky', I am a rape survivor who let my attacker live rent-free in my head for years.
Women's spaces aren't just about locking the doors. They are about being the majority. Women in groups can own the space, they don't have to hide in it. That's not to say I think there shouldn't be women-only spaces, but OP's knitting group isn't a refuge, or survivor's group. I don't believe not a single woman in it, if backed up by the other women, couldn't deal with a mansplainer.

Women having space isn't just about locking the doors, it's about owning the space. Something we can do in numbers, don't you think?

Have you never been in a space where the women considerably outnumber the men? It's a different experience. Liberating, in it's own way.

No, I'm not superior. I just don't accept the narrative that we have to hide in corners because collectively we can't own the space we are in.