AIBU to consider leaving our knitting group over its new policy?

[Solentseeker]

I’m in a women’s knitting group. It started as just a group of friends and extended from there. We meet twice weekly in an hall that has to be booked and paid for and go on trips etc so it has become more formal over time and has a treasurer, secretary, social secretary etc. I and two other friends were founder members but we take a back seat in the organisation now. We attract lots of younger members (30-somethings!) which is great. I (early 60s) love socialising with people, hearing their views etc.

The new chairman (woman) has recently decided that we should announce that we are ‘trans friendly’ and try to attract trans women and non-binary people. Apart from the fact that I don’t know what non-binary people are other than people who don’t sign up to gender stereotypes (most of the women currently in the group don’t go in for nails / make up / fake tan etc anyway so what’s the difference?) I don’t want men in the group, trans identifying or otherwise. I’ve been sexually assaulted a few times in my lifetime, as has another of the founder members. We’ve also always appreciated having a space away from the male gaze and voice, where women can have their voice centre stage for once. I know a number of the current members are also extremely concerned about this new push and would feel pushed out too if any men join.

I have no desire to ‘out’ myself as a ‘TERF’ by complaining or pushing back as it would in their eyes make me a ‘bad’ person and I always try to do good by everyone. I just disagree wholeheartedly with the idea that men should be treated as women because they say so. It seems so seething misogynistic. I’m deeply sad about the whole situation and think I’m going to have to leave the club, because the current chairman seems to stand for things that I don’t. I appreciate women’s rights and they don’t seem to give a fig. What do politics have to do with knitting? Do I just leave? Do I wait and see whether any men try to join before leaving? I can’t be arsed to fight back even though I would have a LOT of (currently silent) supporters.

I’ve never said I’d be against men in the group.

Well, your first post includes this:

I don’t want men in the group, trans identifying or otherwise.

Are women only allowed to want same sex groups, if there's a risk of sexual assault in your world? Why is that?

Would suggest to the Chair to do a members vote

I think it’s weird that anyone should advertise that they now accept a certain person?

it’s sounds like the group has plenty of members so I think they should leave it and if there were a trans woman then they should only be asked to leave if they didn’t follow any rules/polices etc. you may not even know they are trans! How would you check?! Do people have to fill out a form and declare their identity?

i find it strange that women get up in arms when they are declined access to men’s spaces or traditional men’s spaces and clubs. Yet it’s ok to deny access to men or other identities.

it’s knitting and I doubt there’s much risk here?

It’s nothing like excluding people on the basis of their ethnicity! Women have the right to single-sex activities, as do men. If you allow trans-identifying men you have to allow all men, so you can’t call it a women’s group any more.

It's a knitting group. OP clearly framed it that she doesnt want men there because of past experiences with being assaulted. The likelihood of a trans woman turning up to a knitting group to assault anyone is... well...extremely low. I am a member of a few hobby groups with a higher than average number of trans members, and they are more likely to have been assaulted themselves than the other way round. Which is why Im saying to not give in to paranoia and scaremongering.

If OP wanted a certain type of group and restrict it to biological women only, then she should have kept tabs on it and not conveniently give up organising to someone else. The place grew, has more members, and someone else is putting a lot of effort in running it. She can always run a new club with like minded people.

Do the trans men you’re apparently friends with know that you view them as women? I’m surprised they want to remain friends with you if that’s the case

Given that in your OP you said
I don't want men in the group
I think the readers can be forgiven for assuming that you don't want men in the group!
Reading comprehension is not poor.
Posters are reading exactly what you said
How else were we to take I don't want men in the group?
Please explain

I would say the chairwoman has no right to announce any changes to the group without there being an anonymous vote. I wouldn't like having a hobby like knitting try to be overly and unnecessarily politicised whether it be trans, social status, race, etc. If this chairwoman is new, chances are she'll move onto a different hobby if she finds people push back and don't let her dictate what happens.

Worst case scenario, I would quietly form a splinter group with the people who's company I enjoy.

I mean, this was a base for racial segregation- saying that white people have right to white people only spaces.

Every knitting group I've been in (and I have 30 years of them under my belt) has several women who love to tell others how they're wrong: wrong pattern, wrong bind-off, wrong yarn, wrong needles, wrong everything. At least until someone else tells them (usually quietly, sometimes directly) to give it a rest. I find it extraordinarily difficult to believe that men would be the first and only ones to come in and get all bossy and opinionated in your average knitting group.

By contrast, the transwomen, transmen, gay men, straight men, bi men, and nb people I've come across in those knitting groups have been just as variable as people generally are. Most all the people I've met in these groups are lovely and thrilled by knitting, talented and funny. A few occasional arseholes but those are generally knocked into shape or find an elsewhere to be.

But then again, the groups I've been in have had people able to use their words and have a civil discussion. OP might want to try that instead of declaiming here.

It sounds like you just don’t like trans people and actually has nothing to with men vs women spaces. You’re happy for men to join. Just not trans women.

its just a person OP. You may not even know.

agree as a group to have a mixed group and then it’s whichever human turns up to enjoy knitting. You don’t have to have any discriminatory practices then. But you can decide on some best practice rules such as no verbal abuse, no discrimination, no bullying

This IS completely different - the law allows single sex spaces, it doesn't allow single race spaces.

Women are allowed to have women's only groups, clubs, sports, prisons, hospital wards... same as men have single sex spaces. The big difference is that in a group of women there will always be survivors of serious SA and/or male abuse/harrassment - the incidence of these crimes against men is very low. Women who want to have some time in a women only space are not bigots.

So? You've not explained why you think (or if you really do think) that women are only allowed single sex spaces if there is a risk of assault. Can you explain that?

What an appalling opinion. Can you not see why some women may want space away from men? Try opening your mind.

So should a white person have been allowed to black up and demand access to a black space and force everyone to pretend hes not just black, but the most oppressed, vulnerable type of black person?

That would be the equivalent here.

You've said you don't mind men joining. Your narrative is all over the shop.

Presumably the same reason that men want space away from women, on male-only golf courses and shooting clubs.

Women fought for the right to be able to fully participate in traditionally male pursuits. And now we're regressing back to, yes but the women should be able to knit without men, and the men should be able to play golf without the women.

There are legitimate concerns around places where women are vulnerable, either physically or emotionally.

A knitting group - OP needs to grow the fuck up OR set up a women's-only knitting group that excludes men AND trans people, so she can talk about womanly things. That's fine. But knitting groups as a class don't need to change because she's a terf.

Let's stop being so divisive. Women's rights, men's rights and trans rights can easily co-exist if we all just stop being dicks.

Just speak up and say no to men joining.

My women’s sewing group meets in the local library (no charge for using the room) and we’ve discussed this previously and agreed no men, however they identify.

If they’re acting like hand maidens, leave and set up a new group on a different day but keep it informal. That’s where you went wrong IMO.

She doesn't mind men joining.

That's not what the very first post says though. Read it again. She's no idea what she wants.

Actually, that’s an incredibly minimising post. A principle of women’s only spaces not being forced to include men is incredibly important. It just so happens we as that on a practical basis this particular thing might not be affected. You could swing it the other way. If the numbers are so small why bother with trying to change the group and make it trans inclusive? What’s the point in that? Are you suggesting the reason the person trying to change the situation is also ND.

Someone needs to explain to the chair that if the group lets trans identifying men in then they have to let all men in under the Supreme Court ruling. Is that what they want?

So the issue here is that for you - and it seems a few others - it was specifically established as a ‘WOMEN’s knitting group’, rather than just ‘a knitting group’. The single sex nature of it was core to its foundation.

The new chairperson does not share this vision of the group. It’s not unlike the WI situation where members now need to discuss whether they wish it to remain single sex or be trans inclusive.

As others have said, and if you are certain there are several of you who feel this way, you [all] need to speak up. You need to say that for personal reasons you do not wish to expand the membership of the group you co-founded to be a space for purely women to bond over a mutual hobby. You need to ask for a secret member’s vote to ascertain what everyone else wants. If the vote opts to include trans women [after all, its not non-binary biological women you have an issue with], then several of you may have no choice but to leave (and set up a new group).