AIBU to consider leaving our knitting group over its new policy?

[Solentseeker]

I’m in a women’s knitting group. It started as just a group of friends and extended from there. We meet twice weekly in an hall that has to be booked and paid for and go on trips etc so it has become more formal over time and has a treasurer, secretary, social secretary etc. I and two other friends were founder members but we take a back seat in the organisation now. We attract lots of younger members (30-somethings!) which is great. I (early 60s) love socialising with people, hearing their views etc.

The new chairman (woman) has recently decided that we should announce that we are ‘trans friendly’ and try to attract trans women and non-binary people. Apart from the fact that I don’t know what non-binary people are other than people who don’t sign up to gender stereotypes (most of the women currently in the group don’t go in for nails / make up / fake tan etc anyway so what’s the difference?) I don’t want men in the group, trans identifying or otherwise. I’ve been sexually assaulted a few times in my lifetime, as has another of the founder members. We’ve also always appreciated having a space away from the male gaze and voice, where women can have their voice centre stage for once. I know a number of the current members are also extremely concerned about this new push and would feel pushed out too if any men join.

I have no desire to ‘out’ myself as a ‘TERF’ by complaining or pushing back as it would in their eyes make me a ‘bad’ person and I always try to do good by everyone. I just disagree wholeheartedly with the idea that men should be treated as women because they say so. It seems so seething misogynistic. I’m deeply sad about the whole situation and think I’m going to have to leave the club, because the current chairman seems to stand for things that I don’t. I appreciate women’s rights and they don’t seem to give a fig. What do politics have to do with knitting? Do I just leave? Do I wait and see whether any men try to join before leaving? I can’t be arsed to fight back even though I would have a LOT of (currently silent) supporters.

"transmen" are 100% exactly the same thing as women.

She objects to "transwomen" who are 100% exactly the same as men being in a women's group.

HTH.

Didn’t this come out the FWS case, groups can be single sex or mixed but not single sex plus a few members of opposite sex who identify as something other than biological sex.

I think I’d gently point this out and suggest a vote on whether it should be mixed or remain as women only.

I do think there are plenty of groups that are single sex when could easily be mixed but aren’t due to members preference. I think OP has had a hard time on this point.

Would you go though if they make it a mixed sex group?

To be clear, that is exactly what is being proposed because "transwomen" are just men.

Yes. Trans men are women. They’re welcome in a women’s group.

Definitely needs a vote, and a heads up to the Chairman about the law.

Anyway, if this goes ahead I know where I'd be sticking my knitting needles and it wouldn't be into a ball of wool.

No because the difference is that they’re being admitted because all men are being admitted, not because they’re ‘women’.

No it doesn't help because she said it's fine to invite men.
Read her posts
HTH

ALso very unlikely that some random man will want to join a group to s*xually assault someone under the pretext they want to come and do some knitting.

OP, there is so much vilifying of trans people out there, really OP, they are not out there to get you.

I did. And I was replying to yours, quite correctly.

And have asked her to clarify if she would join the mixed sex group if they are calling themselves men and not "transwomen" which is 100% the same thing as a man.

If so, OP's a moron. A man by any other name is just a man.

Why are you telling women they have to have their groups infiltrated by men? How long has the internalised misogyny been this severe?

I wouldn't expect a random man or trans woman in a knitting group to assault anyone. I would expect that it would change the dynamics of the group and there's a strong chance the conversation will be centred around them.

Fine to invite men if you invite ALL men.

Biological the word your looking for is Biological

Cis is a slur doesn't matter who it's aimed at

So when you said you don't want to be around men in your group, that means all men? Not just men who use the word "transwomen" to decribe men?

You said you wanted away from the male gaze, presumably that includes men who admit they are men not just "transwomen" who pretend not to be men - but are.

Cis is indeed a vile slur. I prefer to say "actual men" and "men who pretend to be women" if I really need to clarify.

Men are allowed exclusively men only clubs no-one is demanding access for transmen maybe because transmen are born women and often dont have the entitlement gene

She doesn't object to men being in the group though. She said it'd be fine if there was a change to inviting all men to join the group.
She just doesn't want trans women in there.

I’d prefer to be amongst just women but it’s no big deal breaker for me. What IS a deal breaker is to be forced to include a small subset of men and adopt a political stance that I disagree with in a knitting group that I set up due to someone trying to flex their virtue signalling power.

Did she? I have asked her to clarify.

If this is true, she's a disingenuous idiot and I am sorry I bothered reading any of this, since she talked about the male gaze and sexual assault as being two of the reasons she wanted to avoid all men.

Ok, so your entire premise and post is a goady lie.

You claimed an aversion to the male gaze and triggering from sexual assault were your reasons for wishing to avoid men.

I won't bother reading any more. This whole thread was for the Daily Mail.

You can voice your concerns. If the majority share them, then the policy should be reconsidered. If you're in the minority, you need to decide what's more important to you, and yes, that might mean you have to leave.

But it's a knitting group and you don't mind men joining it, just trans people. That's a difficult position to defend really. You disagree with trans ideology, which is fine. Not wanting to be near trans people in a space that isn't designated female-only, and indeed you yourself don't wish to designate as female-only, is not an easy thing to stick your head above the parapet over.

Your position is, to my understanding, the definition of trans exclusionary - so, a terf. There are many women with understandable and legitimate concerns about trans men entering female only spaces that don't seek to deny the right of trans people to exist, just to protect biological women from predators. They're not terfs. You are though. You wish to exclude people from a hobby group that you'd happily accept mixed genders in, based on beliefs that you don't agree with.

Loads of people believe in stuff I don't believe in - and stuff that's a lot more harmful than 'dressing up in a frock and calling themselves Susan', to use your distasteful language. Climate science deniers and racists cause more societal harm. Would you knit next to them? The men you say you are happy to welcome are objectively more likely to harm you, than our befrocked trans woman friend Susan. Why are you more inclined to knit next to them?

Whatever. It's no odds to me. Leave the group you enjoy because it welcomes a minority. It's nice going back to the 50s.

I have state my reasons for wanting to avoid the male gaze. I’ve never said I’d be against men in the group. Reading comprehension is really poor on mumsnet these days.

If it’s a mixed group I have ZERO issue with trans women joining. HTH!

OP, vote with your feet and make other arrangements with your similarly minded friends.
That is 100% your choice to make.
Don't allow this woman and her virture signalling to spoil what you enjoy.
Just set up a new WhatsApp and decide on a new location.
Good luck.

How long will she be chairwoman for? Is it for a term or ongoing?

I would be tempted to wait and see if it all fizzles out, and only leave when the situation you fear actually arises. You could also try sounding out your mates to set up your own new group