AIBU to think RSE lessons should be separated by sex not gender identity?

[Ljcrow]

My daughter's in Year 4 and had her first proper RSE lesson this week, covering puberty: body changes, periods etc. Girls and boys were separated apart from one boy who wears his hair long, dresses in what most people would view as "girls' clothes" and who likes to be referred to by female pronouns.
Besides the blatant ridiculousness of it- the fact that this child is never going to go through female puberty, I'm uncomfortable with the fact that girls are already being given the message that anyone can self identify into girlhood/womanhood and I worry about the precedent that this sets.
What complicates matters is that my child is really good friends with this boy and I'm friendly with his parents, although not super close, not enough to feel comfortable broaching the subject with them.
I've no problem with them being friends, my worry is that the school is reinforcing a potentially dangerous falsehood: that anyone who says they are the opposite sex, is.
Myself and my husband have always talked to our daughter about how there's more to being a girl than having long hair and liking pink or unicorns and how people can dress how they want and like whatever they like, but somebody's biological sex doesn't change.
As long as we're consistently giving this message is that enough or do I raise my concerns with the school?
Am I being unreasonable to be concerned about this?

Can I ask genuinely? It really never occurred to you that adolescent and prepubescent girls might not want to discuss this with boys present? It never occurred to you that it might stifle questions? Even in a normal lesson about history or something, girls will frequently be reticent and let loud, confident boys dominate (or try to, I dont allow it). That's a whole other discussion but in this area, its crucial that that dynamic is not present.

Genuinely I thought it was a good thing to have joint lessons about it all now, and assumed that's what all schools now did.

Im sure they do and as I said, it's absolutely right that both sexes learn about the other but in addition to that, there should be separate opportunities for discussion.

That's a parent's job.

In an ideal world yes. But plenty of girls may not have that kind of parent and I'd sooner take an hour one afternoon to give them a chance to ask whatever they'd like to then wake up one morning bleeding in their pants and not knowing what to.do.

Right…and what? none of that makes boys being aware of periods a bad thing. Have everyone learn all the information. it’s not difficult,

Again, no.one is suggesting they shouldn't be given the information, just as girls should be taught about what boys deal with. But you can do that AND have separate sessions

And it’s not difficult for girls to be provided with a single-sex space in which to discuss issues that will only affect them, just as the boys were provided with in this case.

Have everyone learn the information they need to know. It’s not difficult. Except that this boy has not been given that opportunity. The boy who was inserted into the girls’ class needs to understand that these things will not to him! He has been mistreated by being treated as if he was a girl.

This.

I agree that both sexes need to be taught about both their own bodies/ puberty and about what puberty is like for the opposite sex, but they especially need to learn about their own sexed body and what to expect.

This boy has deliberately been excluded from learning about his own body. It's hard to understand how even those who prioritise boys and men above girls and women would be in favour of that.

Only 0.018% of the population have chromosomes which don't match their phenotypic sex. Any teenager who doesn't go through puberty as expected for their sex does need to know what is and isn't normal. Some intersex issues like testicles which have remained in the early foetal location in the groin may need surgery due to the high cancer risk, and shouldn't be ignored

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12476264/

In year 4 all the kids should receive the same sex education together. Why separate them? Boys should understand about how women's bodies work and girls should know about men's. They wouldn't be talking about anything inappropriate at that age.

Trans people have existed for centuries and many societies seem to be a lot more accepting of this. Generally, biological sex can be determined, bit it isn't always clear, and as with so many things, further discoveries show more and more that it isn't that simple.

It's more the intolerance that I find so disturbing - people saying 'I'm not calling a biological male 'she'' when they are talking about a confused and probably unhappy child.

I was in the ladies in a big store the other week and found myself washing my hands next to a bearded man. I'm not bothered, tbh, about the whole loo thing. As long as people keep the equipment clean and there are cubicles, I don't understnad the fuss. But I was curious and asked him if he knew this was the ladies. He told me he was trans and was simply doing what the majority of women wanted him to do. I had no reason to disbelieve him - I know a couple of trans men and I honestly wouldn't know they had been born women, I also know there would be an outcry if they were locked up in a women's jail as they have visibly male characteristics.

But to get back to the point: I agree this child needs to be taught about male puberty as this will be what she goes through ('she' because this is how this child wants to be addressed and I try to respect children's wishes), but I suspect she is subject to a fair bit of bullying from the confidently male children, especially given the attitudes of at least one parent in the school. Why separate them? They need to learn about each other.

That's perfectly reasonable but is left up to the school to decide, as has been discussed.

Separating the children by biological sex can be potentially be justified at the end of year 4 as some girls start puberty at 9 and may genuinely be embarrassed to ask questions about their own bodies in front of boys.

What isn't reasonable is putting one boy into the girls' group where he is then not taught about what will happen to his body and potentially misled to believe he will go through female puberty (you'd think he'd know this won't happen, but some 8 and 9 year olds still believe in Father Christmas, which puts expectations about all children this age understanding the difference between reality and polite fiction and things implied and left unsaid into perspective)...

they are talking about a confused and probably unhappy child.
The child is going to be even more confused when he doesn't go through the puberty he's been told he will.

He told me he was trans and was simply doing what the majority of women wanted him to do.
If he's in England (not sure about the rest of the uk) then he's breaking the law.

And im glad you don't care that he was there. Some women would for many reasons including trauma.

The school should not be doing this.

Our school did this for the year above my son. I know several girls who accepted the boy were very upset and uncomfortable by his presence during their puberty talk.

It will silence girls from asking questions because they are too embarrassed and leave the boy vulnerable and ignorant because he has not had the relevant talk to his sex.

This is precisely what the exceptions in the equality act were aimed at - a legitimate reason to exclude on the basis of sex for the benefit of that sex.

Any school doing this should be firmly challenged as failing to uphold the SC ruling and harming young children (both male and female in the process).

The transhausen parents can take the school to court and lose if they don't like it.

I don’t think the point is whether children should learn about puberty in classes that are mixed, single sex or a combination of the two.
The OP posted about a situation where the school decided to provide single sex sessions; they may have also had further mixed sex sessions, we don’t know. But then allowed a boy to join in with the girls’ session. IMO this was discrimination against the girls; the boys got their single sex session but the girls got a mixed sex session. The boy has also been disadvantaged and possibly confused or misled as he has missed the session which applied to him and the puberty he will experience.

He told me he was trans and was simply doing what the majority of women wanted him to do.

This is a lie.

It's intimidating and it's false to force women's compliance.

And even then it's one of those things which isn't about majorities. It's about protecting vulnerable minority groups who are distressed by his presence. Eg NOT FUCKING HIM.

It amazes me how many people appear think it is good parenting never to say ״No” to a child.

It equally amazes me that any man truly thinks women want him in the women’s toilets, and equally that any woman - or man - believes him.

This is an extremely odd addition to the thread - you had an encounter with a bearded man in the women's toilets, and he told you the majority of women wanted him to wash his hands in the women's toilets.

Apart from the question of how this bearded man gathered this unlikely information about the wishes of the majority of women, what on earth does it have to do with the thread?

As to your other point - around 1 in 4500 babies has genitals which are ambiguous or which later turn out not to match their chromosomes. These rare children need to know what is normal for the sex they believe they are so they know when it's appropriate to seek medical advice - there is increased risk of cancer from retained testicles, and of course fertility and other issues they may need support working through.

Children with more common disorders of sexual development like Turner's and Klinefelter are still distinctly male or female and also need to know what body they're living with and when to ask questions and seek medical advice if it's not developing as expected. Turners is usually diagnosed before puberty but not always - girls need to be offered treatment options in a timely fashion. Klinefelter's is often diagnosed late, and again boys need to know if puberty is not going as expected - they need the information pertinent to them!

Learn about wet dreams- boys only

Do the posters who think that the girls shouldn't be separated from the boys for sessions about periods also think that the boys shouldn't be separated from the girls when they discuss wet dreams?

And the people who suffer from this attitude are the girls, whose lessons about their own bodies get disrupted by jokes and teasing from the boys. Misogyny in action.

Girls and boys should be taught the same material. They all need to know the same things. But this is a scenario where everyone benefits if the teaching is provided separately for boys and girls.

The boy who wishes he's a girl is going to be less disruptive than the boys who want to show off their laddishness credentials but his presence will still change the usefulness and benefit of the teaching to the detriment of every girl in the yeargroup and including him in with the girls is sacrificing their wellbeing to avoid him being sad. More misogyny.

3 teaching groups, for girls, for boys and for anyone who is gender-diverse may be the way to go, but all 3 need to be taught the fact that sex is immutable and doesn't change ever no matter what your gender identity is.

Yes.

I think the talk should also cover the opposite sex but the focus is on their own sex.

You don't think the boys would be embarrassed discussing this in front of girls?

I think it would be best if they just weren't separated at all.

I've already said they should be separated.

Misogyny.
Girls benefit if they are separated for this.
Not separating them denies a benefit to girls that they need.
Why is preventing the sadness of one boy worth damaging 30 girls (assuming approx 50% of a 60-pupil cohort)?

Oh yes, it's because girls don't matter as much as boys.